Example on Stock Model use and transforms for Tombstones

[Chally72]

Hey guys,

Because I've seen this question a few times and because this is so difficult to explain, I thought I'd make a video on dealing with tombstone machining and in-process stock models. Linked below is a video showing one method of tombstone programming, wherein we use a single solid body as stock for all tombstone ops, and transform the in-process stock models across different faces of the tombstone. Attached is the file from the video. The resultant NC files utilize different offsets for each individual tombstone part instance, and everything is associative- no PMesh usage. The WCS for each operation is also not tied to the stock in any way.

I hope this helps expand upon one way of doing tombstone programming!

 

 

Tombstone Stock Model Transforms.zip

[JParis]

I appreciate it being shown for those who might not be aware how to complete this it "can" be useful for some.

In my real world applications though, files with 500+ OPs and another 150+ transforms and already xxxx poor file performance, there is no way I would ever tie stock models into that kind of file. Just imagine having to update a DOC or stepover on and early operation......the regen times alone would be HUGE.

How many files do I work on that end up like that you might ask, nearly ALL of them.  Usage as you show is great for the dog & pony show that is sales applications and low volume.

 

[Chally72]

Sure, and for that kind of file/process I'd revert back to Pmeshes and unlink setups to some degree, because at that point associativity can become more of an anchor than a help. The fact that solids exist at world top is the key thing to understand here when trying to expand from single part setups to multiple vises, simple tombstones, etc, and if you've never done it before, you might not even know that it's possible.

[Colin Gilchrist]

33 minutes ago, Chally72 said:

Sure, and for that kind of file/process I'd revert back to Pmeshes and unlink setups to some degree, because at that point associativity can become more of an anchor than a help. The fact that solids exist at world top is the key thing to understand here when trying to expand from single part setups to multiple vises, simple tombstones, etc, and if you've never done it before, you might not even know that it's possible.

Please say "Hi" to Ke for me when you see him. I wish you all a Happy New Year!

[Chally72]

Thanks, you too Colin!

[ibbrraa]

On 12/31/2019 at 6:23 PM, JParis said:

I appreciate it being shown for those who might not be aware how to complete this it "can" be useful for some.

In my real world applications though, files with 500+ OPs and another 150+ transforms and already xxxx poor file performance, there is no way I would ever tie stock models into that kind of file. Just imagine having to update a DOC or stepover on and early operation......the regen times alone would be HUGE.

How many files do I work on that end up like that you might ask, nearly ALL of them.  Usage as you show is great for the dog & pony show that is sales applications and low volume.

 

Hi! Can i ask you how you do it? I have the same problem

 

Thanks a lot!

[JParis]

15 hours ago, ibbrraa said:

Hi! Can i ask you how you do it? I have the same problem

 

Thanks a lot!

When I have a tombstone with multiple parts and operations, I typically only program the 1st position on all sides....

I will run verify and save an stl of that single position.

Import that stl back in, position it using the XFORM commands to the 2nd operation, then run verify on again saving that as an stl

Import that stl back in, position it using the XFORM commands to the 3rd operation, then run verify on again saving that as an stl

and if necessary

Import that stl back in, position it using the XFORM commands to the 4th operation

 

To do either a full simulation or verify, I will import all the stls into a single Mastercam file, using XFORM to get copies to all positions and save that an an stl file.

Now all my tombstone positions are full...

 

 

 

[ibbrraa]

4 hours ago, JParis said:

When I have a tombstone with multiple parts and operations, I typically only program the 1st position on all sides....

I will run verify and save an stl of that single position.

Import that stl back in, position it using the XFORM commands to the 2nd operation, then run verify on again saving that as an stl

Import that stl back in, position it using the XFORM commands to the 3rd operation, then run verify on again saving that as an stl

and if necessary

Import that stl back in, position it using the XFORM commands to the 4th operation

 

To do either a full simulation or verify, I will import all the stls into a single Mastercam file, using XFORM to get copies to all positions and save that an an stl file.

Now all my tombstone positions are full...

 

 

 

Oh I get it so you're using the tombstone for multiple part of the same product, my problem it's different I have like 5/6 parts and all of them are different so I can't just move and transform the result or simulate just a single one.

I'm trying to find a way to do it but it looks like Mastercam has no feature (or at least an easy one) to manage it

Thanks anyway for your replay :-)

[#Rekd™]

22 minutes ago, ibbrraa said:

I'm trying to find a way to do it but it looks like Mastercam has no feature (or at least an easy one) to manage it

Post a sample of your file and someone will look at it.

[crazy^millman]

You have 5 to 6 different parts per face? Sorry, but you're being very vague in your problem and situation. Can you make a sample file with a block with 6 different hole patterns and use it to show us exactly what you are referring to? I did a Turn key a few years ago where we had 24 different parts on the tombstone with 192 positions to fill in. We choose to use 1 column of 8 rows on each face per part number. We programmed the 1st part in each row and then use Transform to carry that through. Now if you are referring to programming 24 different parts and the software automatically taking the tool that is common to them and making an efficient program then yes you are correct there is not an automatic process to take and look at 24 different parts using 10-30 different tools, but maybe 10 tools are common to all of them and using the most efficient process for running them on the machine. Sorry for the run on sentence, but that had to be said in one thought. That said yes I can program that and make it efficient, but it take a good understanding of groups and other things to make it happen. Yes it does take some effort, but that is out job as programmers to make the best programs possible with the tools we have. 

Better information and details and better answers. Less details then you get what you have gotten thus far. 

[JParis]

32 minutes ago, ibbrraa said:

Oh I get it so you're using the tombstone for multiple part of the same product, my problem it's different I have like 5/6 parts and all of them are different so I can't just move and transform the result or simulate just a single one.

I'm trying to find a way to do it but it looks like Mastercam has no feature (or at least an easy one) to manage it

Thanks anyway for your replay

Actually, yeah you can...

I have done tombstones like that as well...

You simply verify each different part based on the stock blank being used...it's a little more juggling on the programmers end but working in that method isn't what I'd consider the "norm"  I think most HMC programs tackle a part or multiples of the same part more often that different parts in one cycle.

It's all in the way you manage it.

If you're running it all in one program, you just select the tools necessary to run on the piece that you're running through verify...and just work on through in that method. For stock blanks and on-going operations, stl's or pmeshes will work...as you export them, you add them into a stock file that will eventally hold all of you starting blanks for all the ops

There just isn't an 'Easy" button but it's all doable

[ibbrraa]

1 hour ago, #Rekd™ said:

Post a sample of your file and someone will look at it.

Thanks for the replay! Im uploading a simple file, on the levels ive writed all the "right labels" hope its hopefull.

Currently we are using this setup with different cam, and i can define a stock for each part and simulating them all at once (in the machine its just one program and one WCS) im trying to find a way to do it with mastercam, but i cant find any that allow me to use multiple stock, then that i can use to simulate and with the resul (stl file) usually we rotate and program the second op (and do basically the same thing).

Hope its clear

 

Thanks!

setup.emcam

[JParis]

2 minutes ago, ibbrraa said:

Thanks for the replay! Im uploading a simple file, on the levels ive writed all the "right labels" hope its hopefull.

Currently we are using this setup with different cam, and i can define a stock for each part and simulating them all at once (in the machine its just one program and one WCS) im trying to find a way to do it with mastercam, but i cant find any that allow me to use multiple stock, then that i can use to simulate and with the resul (stl file) usually we rotate and program the second op (and do basically the same thing).

Hope its clear

 

Thanks!

Hopefully someone with a dealer license will open that and help you out...an Industrial license cannot open an HLE file.

Yes it can be done...

 

[ibbrraa]

1 hour ago, crazy^millman said:

You have 5 to 6 different parts per face? Sorry, but you're being very vague in your problem and situation. Can you make a sample file with a block with 6 different hole patterns and use it to show us exactly what you are referring to? I did a Turn key a few years ago where we had 24 different parts on the tombstone with 192 positions to fill in. We choose to use 1 column of 8 rows on each face per part number. We programmed the 1st part in each row and then use Transform to carry that through. Now if you are referring to programming 24 different parts and the software automatically taking the tool that is common to them and making an efficient program then yes you are correct there is not an automatic process to take and look at 24 different parts using 10-30 different tools, but maybe 10 tools are common to all of them and using the most efficient process for running them on the machine. Sorry for the run on sentence, but that had to be said in one thought. That said yes I can program that and make it efficient, but it take a good understanding of groups and other things to make it happen. Yes it does take some effort, but that is out job as programmers to make the best programs possible with the tools we have. 

Better information and details and better answers. Less details then you get what you have gotten thus far. 

Hi, im sorry if im not that clear explained it but my English its not that advanced

I've uploaded a similar file just with vises, usually we do 1st op in vise then put many parts on the tombstone and mill all of them by night (ill put a pic with something similar, but ours its a bigger one (60x55 inch each face ) hope ive explained it better

 

Thanks

10 minutes ago, JParis said:

Hopefully someone with a dealer license will open that and help you out...an Industrial license cannot open an HLE file.

Yes it can be done...

 

Oh i didnt know that! Sorry, im using HLE version at home to find out how to do it with the same way we are doing it at work with (tebis)!

Thanks

[tornero32]

You just need HLE version to open the file. it has only the solids no toolpaths. I believe what he wants is to machine both parts with two different stocks at the same time in one set up.

 

setup-1.stp

[#Rekd™]

There is no reason the user can post a legit Mastercam file, they are an industrial user. Nothing wrong with using HLE to learn but when asking advanced Mastercam job specific questions you need a valid Mastercam file IMHO.

If the can’t share a specific file, create a new one that they can.

[ibbrraa]

Just now, #Rekd™ said:

There is no reason the user can post a legit Mastercam file, they are an industrial user. Nothing wrong with using HLE to learn but when asking advanced Mastercam job specific questions you need a valid Mastercam file IMHO.

If the can’t share a specific file, create a new one that they can.

Hi, as I said in one of my previous replay I don't need to do a program or to post it the parts are just parts that I made from tutorials not real one, I'm already doing this with Tebis (we don't have Mastercam), but I would like to understand if Mastercam has similar feature. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear

[JParis]

Create your 2 pcs of stock as solids....then save those solids as a single stl...

When running verify, for stock use the file option and click on the stock stl

 

[jwvt88]

On 11/9/2020 at 2:47 PM, ibbrraa said:

 

Oh i didnt know that! Sorry, im using HLE version at home to find out how to do it with the same way we are doing it at work with (tebis)!

Thanks

My recommendation from when I ran Tebis for a couple of years, just have the company get you a laptop to run it at home, with a docking station for at work. I had a good laptop, cameras in my mills, and I could do everything from home if necessary aside from setups. If they can afford Tebis, they can afford setting you up like that. (I'm definitely a Tebis fanboy). 

[JoshC]

On 11/10/2020 at 7:08 AM, ibbrraa said:

Hi, as I said in one of my previous replay I don't need to do a program or to post it the parts are just parts that I made from tutorials not real one, I'm already doing this with Tebis (we don't have Mastercam), but I would like to understand if Mastercam has similar feature. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear

a while back emastercam offered a free ebook course on Indexing for HMC's that shows how to use planes and setup a part for HMC programming, its still avalable here it appears https://www.emastercam.com/freebooks/ so i would suggset checking out the Indexing tutorial after downloading this free ebook and it will walk you through the process of programming a HMC in mastercam.

Keep in mind if you are running the same part all in all 4 positions of the tomb stone there are some cool things we can do with a transform toolpath that make that easier but if you are running different parts in each position of the tombstone then the planes and concepts shown in this tutorial are explained well. 

[tornero32]

On 11/10/2020 at 4:08 AM, ibbrraa said:

Hi, as I said in one of my previous replay I don't need to do a program or to post it the parts are just parts that I made from tutorials not real one, I'm already doing this with Tebis (we don't have Mastercam), but I would like to understand if Mastercam has similar feature. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear