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Building holders in standalone tool manager


JB7280
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I was playing with the standalone tool manager today to try to build some composite holder assemblies, and it would appear that when in the standalone, you can't build a holder from a solid, only a dxf.  Is that the case, or am i missing something??

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Nope why you must do it in the internal one with solids models. I have libraries of holders as they came and holders converted using Model prep. Assemblies can be done, but I have found it best to save them as one step and be done with it. Even with the Lathe 3D holders I build them and then save them as one step and go from there.

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3 hours ago, 5th Axis CGI said:

Nope why you must do it in the internal one with solids models. I have libraries of holders as they came and holders converted using Model prep. Assemblies can be done, but I have found it best to save them as one step and be done with it. Even with the Lathe 3D holders I build them and then save them as one step and go from there.

So even when you have an extension in a holder, you just add the extension onto the holder as one piece?

We have a new presetter, that will have tool management software for, and from what I understand, that uses each individual component and catalogs them separately.  I'm curious to see if they play nice with each other, or at all.

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47 minutes ago, JB7280 said:

So even when you have an extension in a holder, you just add the extension onto the holder as one piece?

We have a new presetter, that will have tool management software for, and from what I understand, that uses each individual component and catalogs them separately.  I'm curious to see if they play nice with each other, or at all.

Really depends on the customer. For customers using a TMS(tool Management System) then separate models and then build them that way. For customers not using a TMS then one and call it a day.

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1 hour ago, JB7280 said:

So even when you have an extension in a holder, you just add the extension onto the holder as one piece?

We have a new presetter, that will have tool management software for, and from what I understand, that uses each individual component and catalogs them separately.  I'm curious to see if they play nice with each other, or at all.

In the standalone manager, You can stack the extension on top of the holder, but you cannot define a stickout length.

So, what we do is assemble the holder, check the extension stickout and model the extension to the appropriate length, then marry them together.

What we end up with is a multitude of the same extension modeled at different lengths..

 

Absolutely the biggest mess that CNC needs to address,

This halfa$$ sometimes use this manager and other times use that manager to try and define tools correctly is an insane time waster.

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Yes it is a definite PITA to create different length tool holders. Fortunately, my go-to tooling is MST Slimline. Different length master holders then set length extentions that all mount from the back. OSG has the same ones but they were more through our suppliers.. but I bought a pile of 45 & 75 length masters and then 55/80/110 length extentions and drew them up for all possible variations. 

So my suggestion for your scenario would be to just have set length projections. Holder A with Extention A with projections every 1/2.  Then Holder A with Extention B, etc. This should alleviate even seasoned programmers from having random increments set to .1 or the new guy setting it at .3291. 

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You can easily change tool projection. But we are currently concerned with quickly changing extension projection. So lets say, you have that collet holder in the video, and put a shrink extension into it, and a 1/4 ball in that. Currently there's no good way to connect holders to holders. In some other software, the "define connection type" is far more usable. For example, you can define connection - ER32 Collet, diameter range preset when creating tool to 1/8 to 3/4. Then it will auto sort to only tools(or collet/shrink extensions) that will fit into that holder. Then you can quickly choose, alright I need to stick out roughly 5" plus tool, grab this extension, add this tool, and you're off to the races. Then if the tool does collide in simulation, you can quickly go back into the tool, and say whoops, I needed that extension to stick out another inch, lets make that projection longer, or exchange it for a longer extension, without scrapping the whole holder and starting from scratch. It is also aware and will tell you exactly how long the extension or tool need to stick out to avoid collision, but that's a whole different animal. 

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15 hours ago, kccadcam said:

In the standalone manager, You can stack the extension on top of the holder, but you cannot define a stickout length.

So, what we do is assemble the holder, check the extension stickout and model the extension to the appropriate length, then marry them together.

What we end up with is a multitude of the same extension modeled at different lengths..

 

Absolutely the biggest mess that CNC needs to address,

This halfa$$ sometimes use this manager and other times use that manager to try and define tools correctly is an insane time waster.

I agree on this.  Lots of similar properties behave way differently, depending on which manager you go to, and how you get to it.  For instance, why can I only assign a holder inside of a toolpath.  (Or am I wrong?). Why can I only use the nice Edit Projection tool from inside the tool manager.   Lots of little anomalies I can't think of right now, that give MC an unfinished, or amateur feel.

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13 hours ago, kccadcam said:

Not talking about tool stickout,,,,,, Extension holder stickout from a main toolholder...

When I built holders with extensions, I built several versions with several stick out distances..if II some how need another,I still have the files to make a new one if necessary

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40 minutes ago, JB7280 said:

I agree on this.  Lots of similar properties behave way differently, depending on which manager you go to, and how you get to it.  For instance, why can I only assign a holder inside of a toolpath.  (Or am I wrong?). Why can I only use the nice Edit Projection tool from inside the tool manager.   Lots of little anomalies I can't think of right now, that give MC an unfinished, or amateur feel.

1. You can create an assembly in the standalone Tool Manager instead of assigning inside of a toolpath. You can always swap if you need to vary outside of your "standard" length.

2. You can edit projection even better from your toolpath. Right click on your tool(inside of your toolpath parameters), then click edit projection. You can then move your tool around the screen with the holder, and click where you want to check your depth. After you set where you want the tool to stay, then you can drag the holder up and down to your desired length

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2 hours ago, jwvt88 said:

1. You can create an assembly in the standalone Tool Manager instead of assigning inside of a toolpath. You can always swap if you need to vary outside of your "standard" length.

2. You can edit projection even better from your toolpath. Right click on your tool(inside of your toolpath parameters), then click edit projection. You can then move your tool around the screen with the holder, and click where you want to check your depth. After you set where you want the tool to stay, then you can drag the holder up and down to your desired length

Actually, thats the projection tool I was talking about.  I just wasn't aware it was accessible through the tool parameters.  I'd like to be able to assign a holder within the embedded tool manager.  Perhaps there's a reason why MC doesn't let you, just seems like it'd be easier for my workflow.

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You can adjust the projection between a holder and extension in the standalone Tool Manager, but not in Mastercam currently. If you select the parent component in standalone Tool Manager and then CTRL+Drag, it works the same way it does when setting tool stickout.
 
 
I don't have my 39.5 foot pole to poke the trim comment right now...
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I never use solid models to make my tool holders because you can't edit them. When I am using an extension in a holder I just draw the extension at different lengths that i need for stick out from the tool and tell the guys to use whatever holder to hold the extension unless its really tight tricky long stuff. And my other rule for using that stand alone is to limit my exposure to headaches until they get all the pieces of a tool setup into that system I don't bother with it too much its not worth it until then and I have been waiting a really long time for that to happen.

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  • 3 years later...

We use the stand-alone manager and have our tools, extensions and holders separate (other than shrink fit holders which are standard 50,80 and 110mm lengths). Once you build your holder assy in the stand alone and then import it into your toolpath operation you can easily edit the length of the extension on the Holder page. Simply right click on the picture of the holder and it will take you back to a copy of the original drawing of that extension, and then you can modify that drawing (without affecting the original in your library).

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On 3/20/2020 at 3:52 AM, gms1 said:

I never use solid models to make my tool holders because you can't edit them. When I am using an extension in a holder I just draw the extension at different lengths that i need for stick out from the tool and tell the guys to use whatever holder to hold the extension unless its really tight tricky long stuff. And my other rule for using that stand alone is to limit my exposure to headaches until they get all the pieces of a tool setup into that system I don't bother with it too much its not worth it until then and I have been waiting a really long time for that to happen.

You need to read the fine print. Yes you can edit a tool holder from a solid model. Any tool holder that doesn't contain radius on the profile can be modified. I know is a lot of work and takes time. I agree with you, is a waste of time. We just want to grab the solid from the vendor and make the adjustments.

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stand-alone Tool Manager is powerful tool, I use it a lot, too bad that you cannot use solid models to create holders.

It's very confusing to use DFX files, every new release of Mastercam changes the way you can Import the geometry. The same DFX file that was Created in Mastercam 2022

 cannot be use in Mastercam 2024. If you go to help page the information is not up to date, still from Mastercam X7.

What I like the most is that I use it to get my feeds and speeds from the Cut parameters.

 

image.thumb.jpeg.8e1e33f72def11a34f31eeb3fc52ce01.jpeg

image.thumb.jpeg.9d4e95381cd26921879706ed2ba0264a.jpeg

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On 3/18/2020 at 2:49 PM, kccadcam said:

In the standalone manager, You can stack the extension on top of the holder, but you cannot define a stickout length.

So, what we do is assemble the holder, check the extension stickout and model the extension to the appropriate length, then marry them together.

What we end up with is a multitude of the same extension modeled at different lengths..

 

Absolutely the biggest mess that CNC needs to address,

This halfa$$ sometimes use this manager and other times use that manager to try and define tools correctly is an insane time waster.

One of the other things that I've noticed is that you sometimes have to define things in weird ways to get an assembly to work correctly, in terms of gage length.

For example, with exchangeable tip drills, you have to define the drill body as a holder, and just the tip as the tool, which makes your stickout length and length of cut all wrong.

 

What we need is to have the ability to stack multiple "tool" items, just as we can stack multiple "holder items", and then have those composite tool assemblies show proper length of cut and other relevant info.

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