Renishaw Probing Add-on

[JB7280]

Does anyone here use the Renishaw probing add-on?  We have it, but it never gets used just because nobody has been able to take the time to figure it out.  

 

I would like to probe a plane in Z, at 3 points, and use those points to generate a Z plane, which I can update that work offset to.  If anyone here has experience with this add-on, I'd appreciate any help.  

[JoshC]

46 minutes ago, JB7280 said:

Does anyone here use the Renishaw probing add-on?  We have it, but it never gets used just because nobody has been able to take the time to figure it out.  

 

I would like to probe a plane in Z, at 3 points, and use those points to generate a Z plane, which I can update that work offset to.  If anyone here has experience with this add-on, I'd appreciate any help.  

The very first toolpath in the sample file included with the probing tutorials shows how to measure Z and update G54 and then measure a Web for xy and update g54, if you download the Mastercam 2019 Productivity plus tutorials from here and look at the sample part/tutorials included and refer to toolpath #1 it will show proper setup of this application https://my.mastercam.com/Learning/Tutorials/Mastercam 

[JB7280]

Thank you, I hadn't seen any tutorial literature, so that will be a good start.

[JParis]

Wouldn't be hard to add a 3rd point to the calculation..

It's calculating the Z tilt.....if it's tilted too far it doesn't run the part but it also averages to Z offset as well

N8902(PROBE 2 ROUTINE - FUSION LASER BENCH)
()
(PROBE POSITION 1 B0)
()
G65P9809T1X.0Y-.15F100.
G65P9809T1Z.1F100.
G65P9810Z-.975F100.
G65P9811Y.0178S#19(Y OFFSET)
G65P9810Z-.75F100.
G65P9810X.375Y.32F100.
G65P9811Z-.8713S#19(Z OFFSET)
#801=#[70003+[20*[#19-101]]]
#804=ABS[#801](SAVE FOR TILT COMPARISON)
G65P9810Z-.75F100.
G65P9810X-.375Y.32F100.
G65P9811Z-.8713S#19(Z OFFSET)
#802=[#801+#[70003+[20*[#19-101]]]]/2
#805=ABS[#[70003+[20*[#19-101]]]](SAVE FOR TILT COMPARISON)
#[70003+[20*[#19-101]]]=#802(AVERAGE Z OFFSET)
#803=#805-#804(SAVE FOR TILT COMPARISON)
#803=ABS[#803](TILT COMPARISON VALUE)
G65P9810Z.1F100.
G28Z0.
(END PROBE 2)
M99

 

[JB7280]

1 hour ago, JParis said:

Wouldn't be hard to add a 3rd point to the calculation..

It's calculating the Z tilt.....if it's tilted too far it doesn't run the part but it also averages to Z offset as well

 

I tend to save sample files of old probe routines I've written for templates, so I do have some knowledge of writing them by hand (although, I'll admit, I have to relearn each time I do it, because it's not that often), I'd just like to try to learn the Productivity+ module, since we have it.

[JParis]

5 minutes ago, JB7280 said:

I'd just like to try to learn the Productivity+ module, since we have it.

Oh I get it...Haven't played with it for years now, I'm just not sure how much flexibility it provides when needing to manipulate data

[JB7280]

16 minutes ago, JParis said:

Oh I get it...Haven't played with it for years now, I'm just not sure how much flexibility it provides when needing to manipulate data

Fair enough, that makes sense.  Thank you.

[Colin Gilchrist]

Prod+ can absolutely do whatever you need it to do. It is very powerful, as it allows you to generate any of the Renishaw Macro Calls. You can also insert "markers" (Block Numbers) in the NC code between Operations inside Mastercam. Then you can write IF/GOTO statements, that allow you to "Cut, Probe, Update, and Re-Cut" a part.

When you say "Probe 3 Points to find a Plane", are you talking about "Setting a Z-Value for a Work Offset", or are you trying to calculate two Rotary Values, to align an angled part face to the coordinate system of the machine? If you want to align a part face to the machine coordinate system, you probably need to execute two Probe Macros, one for each rotary, and that would need 2 points per cycle to do that.

 

[cncappsjames]

17 minutes ago, Colin Gilchrist said:

When you say "Probe 3 Points to find a Plane", are you talking about "Setting a Z-Value for a Work Offset", or are you trying to calculate two Rotary Values, to align an angled part face to the coordinate system of the machine? If you want to align a part face to the machine coordinate system, you probably need to execute two Probe Macros, one for each rotary, and that would need 2 points per cycle to do that.

My guess is the latter.

Everyone wants the Easy Button.

Machine Tool probing has lagged behind CMM measurement honestly. Hoping they will up that game.

Productivity+..... meh. IMHO it's not as powerful as Inspection Plus. Productivity+ is just capturing skip signal trigger points and doing something. Inspection Plus OTOH every probe cycle gives you the following info (or at least info related to the cycle in question);

#135 X Position
#136 Y Position
#137 Z Position
#138 Feature Size
#139 Surface Angle
#140 X Error
#141 Y Error
#142 Z Error
#143 Size Error
#144 Angle Error
#145 True Position Error
#146 Metal
#147 Direction Indication
#148 Out Of Tolerance Flag (1~7)
#149 Probe Error Flag (0~2)

 

Inspection plus can a little more laborious as you're manually writing the cycles, but the reality is there are only like 13 cyles in total with 6 being used probably 90% of the time, and 3 of those 6 are probably used 90% of the 90%. Single Surface, Bore/Boss and Web Pocket being the most commonly used cycles.

• Call the probe to the spindle
• Activate your work offset and tool length offset
• You turn on the probe
• You move it into measurement position using the protected cycle
• You measure the feature
• You move it away using the protected move
• You turn off the probe
• You send Z home.

That's your cycle. Obviously they can get infinitely more complicated based on what the desired goal is; I've done simple XYZ offset setting up to full blown part inspections with formatted DPRINT output for SPC purposes and a lot in between. I've just never really been that impressed with Productivity+. Guess I'm just old school that way.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, cncappsjames said:

Everyone wants the Easy Button. 

Where is that in Mastercam again?

[JParis]

Right up in the corner...you don't have one?

[metalmansteve]

Does anyone have experience with cimco probing?  About half the price of renishaw 

[Chally72]

1 hour ago, cncappsjames said:

Productivity+..... meh. IMHO it's not as powerful as Inspection Plus.

Inspection+ is using a different, less extensive calibration cycle than Productivity+. Keep in mind that compensation errors can be greater, especially when measuring off-angle components.

 

18 minutes ago, metalmansteve said:

Does anyone have experience with cimco probing?  About half the price of renishaw 

 

I've used both extensively. There are advantages and disadvantages to each, but to go over a quick bullet point summary:

• CIMCO Probing handles 95% of probing applications, targeting the most common use cases for process control or workpiece setup, with basic GoTo loop options.
• CIMCO probing is not limited to Renishaw hardware.
• Initial integration time is vastly reduced because CIMCO probing leverages the macros already installed on the machine controller for probing, and does not require things like dedicating variable blocks, macro posting, and machine behavior edits that Productivity+ requires for similar functionality
• Because of the simplified nature of the CIMCO product, it cannot do the higher end stuff Productivity+ can, like create constructed features and advanced logic to branch off of. The top end power and flexibility in Productivity+ is to be able to easily build a process and logic tree programmatically, and there's nothing else that replicates that.

The targeted use case you want probing for is going to tell you which of these products is a better fit. 

[JoshC]

45 minutes ago, Chally72 said:

Inspection+ is using a different, less extensive calibration cycle than Productivity+. Keep in mind that compensation errors can be greater, especially when measuring off-angle components.

 

 

I've used both extensively. There are advantages and disadvantages to each, but to go over a quick bullet point summary:

• CIMCO Probing handles 95% of probing applications, targeting the most common use cases for process control or workpiece setup, with basic GoTo loop options.
• CIMCO probing is not limited to Renishaw hardware.
• Initial integration time is vastly reduced because CIMCO probing leverages the macros already installed on the machine controller for probing, and does not require things like dedicating variable blocks, macro posting, and machine behavior edits that Productivity+ requires for similar functionality
• Because of the simplified nature of the CIMCO product, it cannot do the higher end stuff Productivity+ can, like create constructed features and advanced logic to branch off of. The top end power and flexibility in Productivity+ is to be able to easily build a process and logic tree programmatically, and there's nothing else that replicates that.

The targeted use case you want probing for is going to tell you which of these products is a better fit. 

Here is my opinion on the two products, both Cimco probing and Productivity+ are excellent and powerful products.

Cimco i thought was Super easy to learn, if you want to be able to pick it up and learn it very quickly and easily Cimco may be a better choice since prod+ is a bit more of a learning curve, but on the other hand we can do more with prod+ at this time, quite a bit more in fact. 

CIMCO probing wins when it comes to ease of use and ease of learning, productivity+ wins IMO for people that want max power and capabilities

 

when it comes to Code output your gonna see some drastic differences as well, mastercam productivity+ code is typically more difficult to read, this is because cimco probing is using the onboard macros where prod+ will make its own. so the code output from Prod+ could be 10-100x larger in size than the code output from cimco probing, so cimco probing wins if your looking for simplicity of code, its going to be easier code for someone to look at and read coming out of cimco probing verses prod+.

 

When it comes to customization, productivity plus wins in this area, with prod+ you get a productivity+ post processor configuration tool, which means you can fine tune your probing cycles, things like adjusting the protected move feedrate, 1 touch or 2 touch measurements, probe backoff distance, etc. can all be edited on the users end right through the productivity+ post processor utility. This is another reason why productivity+ is so powerful and the reason why the code is more extensive because we can control almost every aspect of how your probe moves on the machine and cimco is going to rely mostly on the onboard cycles loaded with the inspection+ macros.

Those are my opinions for what they are worth. 

again they are both great products, its just a matter of what your needs may be and what you may like better. 

[Colin Gilchrist]

Prod+ can be configured to output the "on machine" Probing Macros. You don't have to generate the full "Probing Macros", although you can, and you do have to if you want anything custom...

[cncappsjames]

1 hour ago, Chally72 said:

Inspection+ is using a different, less extensive calibration cycle than Productivity+. Keep in mind that compensation errors can be greater, especially when measuring off-angle components.

Only true if you haven't run the vector calibration cycle and if you don't use vectored probing cycles. 

We always do the vector calibration and use the vector cycles when appropriate.

[crazy^millman]

2007 I was doing a lot of this with just the basic drilling cycles. Verisurf has the ability to do this just wish more people where aware so they could get the Mother Ship to buy into it.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, crazy^millman said:

2007 I was doing a lot of this with just the basic drilling cycles. Verisurf has the ability to do this just wish more people where aware so they could get the Mother Ship to buy into it.

It's hard to justify that kind of expense.. until a big mistake happens, one sidewall ln an aircraft is worth more than buying a license, but until that happens, I don't think we will get it.

[Thad]

Lots of good info here. 

[crazy^millman]

1 hour ago, byte me said:

It's hard to justify that kind of expense.. until a big mistake happens, one sidewall ln an aircraft is worth more than buying a license, but until that happens, I don't think we will get it.

I was not making mistakes I was getting all the data I needed.

[Guest]

41 minutes ago, crazy^millman said:

I was not making mistakes I was getting all the data I needed.

Oh I totally agree with you man, I'm just saying, it doesn't crunch on the spreadsheets for everyone.

[Leon82]

Renishaw calls that stock allowance. It's a 3 point probe cycle to set z.  You would need to use the rotary probe cycles to zero an axis.

 

We use the drill cycles for ours and it has made life so much easier.  They don't buy another machine without the probes now. Even the wire EDM has a probe

 

[crazy^millman]

20 minutes ago, byte me said:

Oh I totally agree with you man, I'm just saying, it doesn't crunch on the spreadsheets for everyone.

The shop I worked out of was directly approved by Boeing as a DPD House back in 2006 thanks to my efforts. I went to Oregon and did a contract 5 Axis Programming job with Zoober back then and we got some pretty cool probing logic made for their machines all controlled with drilling cycles. All of that logic has been shared for years on the forum. 

[JB7280]

On 10/9/2020 at 1:18 PM, Colin Gilchrist said:

Prod+ can absolutely do whatever you need it to do. It is very powerful, as it allows you to generate any of the Renishaw Macro Calls. You can also insert "markers" (Block Numbers) in the NC code between Operations inside Mastercam. Then you can write IF/GOTO statements, that allow you to "Cut, Probe, Update, and Re-Cut" a part.

When you say "Probe 3 Points to find a Plane", are you talking about "Setting a Z-Value for a Work Offset", or are you trying to calculate two Rotary Values, to align an angled part face to the coordinate system of the machine? If you want to align a part face to the machine coordinate system, you probably need to execute two Probe Macros, one for each rotary, and that would need 2 points per cycle to do that.

 

My apologies, I didn't check this thread all weekend.  I am probing 3 points, and calculating an average to alter the Z work offset.  (A casting face, with depths coming from that face.)

[JB7280]

On 10/9/2020 at 2:02 PM, cncappsjames said:

My guess is the latter.

Everyone wants the Easy Button.

Machine Tool probing has lagged behind CMM measurement honestly. Hoping they will up that game.

Productivity+..... meh. IMHO it's not as powerful as Inspection Plus. Productivity+ is just capturing skip signal trigger points and doing something. Inspection Plus OTOH every probe cycle gives you the following info (or at least info related to the cycle in question);

#135 X Position
#136 Y Position
#137 Z Position
#138 Feature Size
#139 Surface Angle
#140 X Error
#141 Y Error
#142 Z Error
#143 Size Error
#144 Angle Error
#145 True Position Error
#146 Metal
#147 Direction Indication
#148 Out Of Tolerance Flag (1~7)
#149 Probe Error Flag (0~2)

 

Inspection plus can a little more laborious as you're manually writing the cycles, but the reality is there are only like 13 cyles in total with 6 being used probably 90% of the time, and 3 of those 6 are probably used 90% of the 90%. Single Surface, Bore/Boss and Web Pocket being the most commonly used cycles.

• Call the probe to the spindle
• Activate your work offset and tool length offset
• You turn on the probe
• You move it into measurement position using the protected cycle
• You measure the feature
• You move it away using the protected move
• You turn off the probe
• You send Z home.

That's your cycle. Obviously they can get infinitely more complicated based on what the desired goal is; I've done simple XYZ offset setting up to full blown part inspections with formatted DPRINT output for SPC purposes and a lot in between. I've just never really been that impressed with Productivity+. Guess I'm just old school that way.

James, I may have called it incorrectly.  I was referring to the Probe add-in for Mastercam.  Our probe uses Inspection+, I thought the Probe add-on in MC was Productivity+.