4th Axis A0. not Top?

[[email protected]]

Hi Everybody, 

I have a round part with some internal features that were milled on a VMC and now I have to add a port hole to match up with the inside. There are also many other holes on the OD of the part so I am using the 4th axis. So when I made my Setup Sheet I said to indicate a given surface flat and set that to A0. Which makes the first hole directly on top of the part (from Top View). Problem is when I post that first whole that is directly on top posts as A-180. I hadn't noticed this with my 4th axis post here before because I wasn't matching up previous ops. Correct me if I am wrong but shouldn't A0. be the "top" and not require rotation. Please help me fix this I'm guessing the Machine Component Manager-Rotary Axis page is where to fix it but I am not sure as what to do?

[Guest]

Is your wcs set to top?

[nickbe10]

7 minutes ago, [email protected] said:

Correct me if I am wrong but shouldn't A0. be the "top" and not require rotation. Please help me fix this I'm guessing the Machine Component Manager-Rotary Axis page is where to fix it but I am not sure as what to do?

Depends how you have set up your system...You can theoretically have your A0 n any plane but MC prefers to be on Mastercam origin (this is especially true with multiaxis), it is less fussy about which way is up or left etc....

[[email protected]]

Yes, all three planes are set to top. using axis substitution.

Also The 4th axis is sitting on the right(x+) side of the machine with the chuck facing the x- direction. I am guessing I just need to change the direction to X- on the Component Manager but I am not sure never had this be an issue before?

[crazy^millman]

30 minutes ago, [email protected] said:

Yes, all three planes are set to top. using axis substitution.

Also The 4th axis is sitting on the right(x+) side of the machine with the chuck facing the x- direction. I am guessing I just need to change the direction to X- on the Component Manager but I am not sure never had this be an issue before?

Who told you that is correct way to machine the part? With Axis Sub you throw everything off. No need to Axis sub. Just use TOP/TOP/TOP and call it a day.  

[[email protected]]

I have to drill holes all the way around the parts diameter?

[crazy^millman]

12 minutes ago, [email protected] said:

I have to drill holes all the way around the parts diameter?

Not sure the version you are using, but if above 2019 then you set the operation to 4th Axis and call it a day. If not then you drill one and then use Transform Rotate. Never in my years of doing it have even thought to try to use Axis Sub to accomplish what our doing. Might work, but seeing how you just said it was a 180 off tells me not like you hoped it would. 

[[email protected]]

im using 2019.

[AMCNitro]

Set the model on the X axis plus side, that's your WCS.  Then for each rotation you create a WCS.  If you need to index from a flat feature already on the part you set that feature to your TOP WCS(not necessary to do it like that, but that's how I do it).  No AXIS SUB unless you're doing interpolation.

 

 

[crazy^millman]

Yes Multi axis Drill was the way to do this in 2019. They combined it all into regular drill with 2020.

[nickbe10]

15 hours ago, [email protected] said:

Yes, all three planes are set to top. using axis substitution.

FYI 99% of the time there is a better way to do things than Axis Sub, but I do use it a couple of times a year. We do a lot of work on tubes so it can be handy to generate simple live rotation.

[JParis]

6 minutes ago, nickbe10 said:

FYI 99% of the time there is a better way to do things than Axis Sub

Not if you don't have multi-axis tho'  if you do, yeah, there's generally a better way to do it.

[[email protected]]

BTW I did the path again using multi axis and the rotations were how they were supposed to be. But what I can't figure out is why does backplot and verify show everything correct with both? I attached the spotting cycle from both methods and have confirmed the first hole is the same in Mastercam for Geometry selection, Back plot and Verify. Yet the G code shows the Rotary Sub starting at A-144. and  the Multiaxis starting at A36.

[Newbeeee™]

14 hours ago, AMCNitro said:

Set the model on the X axis plus side, that's your WCS.  Then for each rotation you create a WCS.  If you need to index from a flat feature already on the part you set that feature to your TOP WCS(not necessary to do it like that, but that's how I do it).  No AXIS SUB unless you're doing interpolation.

 

Is this correct???

I was always told that set your part A0 and your TOP WCS, and then for all rotations create new planes for each angle. 

But all planes then use the A0 WCS?

[nickbe10]

48 minutes ago, JParis said:

Not if you don't have multi-axis tho'

Doesn't even come close to multi axis functionality tho. And that's pretty much what we use it for, We can generate simple live profiles on the tubes with a constant z depth.

We are starting to pull in more of our small hog out work, so we will probably add the multi axis license here shortly, it doesn't take too much to justify it these days....

[crazy^millman]

Glad you got something working, but Axis Sub and Back-plot have had issues another reason why I don't use it unless I have no other chocie.

You Machine Def doesn't have Signed direction 0-360 so the MultiAxis just started at A-144. seeing that value is in both programs. Change the MMD to 0-360 and then retry posting the code. End of the day if you make a good part the A can start at 1 billion not that I would want it to, but angles and angles and because of how and where you picked  it and maybe a few other things going on in the toolpath it just came out at A-144. Share a Z2G with a sample file and we can play along at home.

[AMCNitro]

21 minutes ago, Newbeeee™ said:

Is this correct???

I was always told that set your part A0 and your TOP WCS, and then for all rotations create new planes for each angle. 

But all planes then use the A0 WCS?

That's what I said.

[[email protected]]

Allright I Model prepped the crap out of the part and deleted the name from levels.... even though it's not ITAR not sure if it was fully shareable. If you compare operation 9 and operation 12 those are the two spotting cycles. operation 9 being the rotary sub and operation 12 is multiaxis method. 

zip2go rot sub vs multi axis.ZIP

[crazy^millman]

All you need to do it limit the A to 0-360 in the MMD and also change the Axis sub to the same direction as the Multiaxis. You have the multiaxis going in a CW direction drilling the holes and the Axis sub going in a CCW direction. When they match the code matched exactly. You tell Mastercam to do two different things and you will always get two different results.

%
O0000(101739-001 REV D 4TH AXIS MILL OP3 5 AXIS)
(DATE=DD-MM-YY - 30-10-20 TIME=HH:MM - 07:27)
(MCX FILE - C:\USERS\RON\DOCUMENTS\MY MASTERCAM 2021\MASTERCAM\PARTS\ZIP2GO ROT SUB VS MULTI AXIS\LEIDOS\101739-001 REV D\CAD\REFERENCE\ZIP2GO ROT SUB VS MULTI AXIS.MCAM)
(NC FILE - C:\USERS\RON\DOCUMENTS\MY MCAM2019\MILL\NC\101739-001 REV D 4TH AXIS MILL OP3 5 AXIS.NC)
(MATERIAL - ALUMINUM INCH - 2024)
( T5 | 1/4 SPOT DRILL 120 DEGREE EFH 1.0 | H5 )
N100 G20
N102 G0 G17 G40 G49 G80 G90
N104 T5 M6
N106 G0 G90 G54 X-1.25 Y0. A36. S1000 M3
N108 G43 H5 Z3.1485
N110 G98 G83 Z2.7235 R2.8485 Q0. F5.
N112 X-.625
N114 A-0.
N116 X-1.25
N118 X-.625 A-324.
N120 X-1.25
N122 X-.625 A-288.
N124 X-1.25
N126 A-252.
N128 X-.625
N130 X-1.25 A-216.
N132 X-.625
N134 A-180.
N136 X-1.25
N138 A-144.
N140 X-.625
N142 A-108.
N144 X-1.25
N146 X-.625 A-72.
N148 X-1.25
N150 G80
N152 M5
N154 G91 G28 Z0.
N156 G28 X0. Y0. A0.
N158 M30
%

%
O0000(101739-001 REV D 4TH AXIS MILL OP3)
(DATE=DD-MM-YY - 30-10-20 TIME=HH:MM - 07:27)
(MCX FILE - C:\USERS\RON\DOCUMENTS\MY MASTERCAM 2021\MASTERCAM\PARTS\ZIP2GO ROT SUB VS MULTI AXIS\LEIDOS\101739-001 REV D\CAD\REFERENCE\ZIP2GO ROT SUB VS MULTI AXIS.MCAM)
(NC FILE - C:\USERS\RON\DOCUMENTS\MY MCAM2019\MILL\NC\101739-001 REV D 4TH AXIS MILL OP3.NC)
(MATERIAL - ALUMINUM INCH - 2024)
( T5 | 1/4 SPOT DRILL 120 DEGREE EFH 1.0 | H5 )
N100 G20
N102 G0 G17 G40 G49 G80 G90
( SPOTS 8-32 STI HOLES )
N104 M8
N106 T5 M6
N108 G0 G90 G54 X-1.25 Y0. A36. S3000 M3
N110 G43 H5 Z3.0808
N112 G98 G81 Z2.7208 R2.8308 F8.
N114 X-.625
N116 A-0.
N118 X-1.25
N120 A-324.
N122 X-.625
N124 A-288.
N126 X-1.25
N128 A-252.
N130 X-.625
N132 A-216.
N134 X-1.25
N136 A-180.
N138 X-.625
N140 A-144.
N142 X-1.25
N144 A-108.
N146 X-.625
N148 A-72.
N150 X-1.25
N152 G80
N154 M9
N156 M5
N158 G91 G28 Z0.
N160 G28 X0. Y0. A0.
N162 M30
%

FYI they make port tools for a reason. I would strongly recommend you get your company to get port tools to that SAE port. Surfacing that port can lead to failures and if this something that if it fails your company is liable they might want to get the correct tool to do the port.

Have a good day.

[[email protected]]

I knew someone of your caliber would answer all my questions. Thank you very much Millman! Also I purchased the Port tool but my setup guys didn't want to grind the spot face down as it is too large for the rib next to it and my inspectors informed me they surfaced it in a past rev and it passed outgoing and incoming inspection.... But I would have much rather used the 200 dollar port tool I bought considering machining from scratch took like 7 minutes or something....Maybe I'll just make a fuss til they grind it down or do it myself. 

[Newbeeee™]

1 hour ago, AMCNitro said:

That's what I said.

Not to argue or derail, but you said you create a new WCS for each rotation (angle).

 

[crazy^millman]

12 minutes ago, [email protected] said:

I knew someone of your caliber would answer all my questions. Thank you very much Millman! Also I purchased the Port tool but my setup guys didn't want to grind the spot face down as it is too large for the rib next to it and my inspectors informed me they surfaced it in a past rev and it passed outgoing and incoming inspection.... But I would have much rather used the 200 dollar port tool I bought considering machining from scratch took like 7 minutes or something....Maybe I'll just make a fuss til they grind it down or do it myself. 

Why I always ask for a Z2G file to see what your or others are seeing.

You did your job on the port tool then you can be like me and go grind the tool set it up in a holder go touch it off and then run it to prove a point or just let it slide. Crazy people seems to always want to do it the right way and take the time to do it the right way.

[[email protected]]

Newbee I only create new planes/wcs for mill work and holes that are off center of rotation typically.

Millman yeah considering I already bought the damn tool I'll make sure we use it. Even if I have to do it myself....it's been like 5 years since I used a surface grinder..I'd better get some supervision.

[crazy^millman]

2 minutes ago, Newbeeee™ said:

Not to argue or derail, but you said you create a new WCS for each rotation (angle).

 

That is correct, but he didn't say use a new WCS for each operation just make one. Some might say T-C Plane for each rotation, but in reality you are creating a new WCS. I know him personally and he knows how to use Mastercam.

[Newbeeee™]

45 minutes ago, crazy^millman said:

That is correct, but he didn't say use a new WCS for each operation just make one. Some might say T-C Plane for each rotation, but in reality you are creating a new WCS. I know him personally and he knows how to use Mastercam.

Oh okay - yes Planes Planes Planes was always the cry for rotations and I always religiously did that - the one TOP WCS for A0 and new C+T for the angles but using the A0 TOP WCS.

I realize AMC knows how to use the SW from all his other postings. I guess what I was really querying is was that the correct or an acceptable way to do it - does detting a new WCS for each angle work okay? 

By memory with my post, it would give funky A outputs if I did 'gram with more than one WCS.