List of toolpaths not supported by mill turn

[AGreen5]

Does anyone have a list of toolpaths and features of Mastercam that are not supported by mill turn?  I feel like that might be a good resource to have. 

I started working on some moderately complex parts and some geometries that required c axis tool paths like axis substitution contours and stuff nothing crazy and I started to realize many of the paths don’t support axis substitution and some of the paths won’t support toolpath transform.  One of those toolpaths required trying what felt like 12 paths to find one that supported axis substitution.  The contour wouldn’t profile ramp in axis substitution so I had to predrill a hole, plunge on point and slot the path. That was odd behavior for contour, which normally supports ramping. It wouldn’t support a transformso i had to create a lot of extra geometry and chain the other operations. 
 

Several tools in multi-axis appear to be unsupported.  Like today I put together a debur path to cut a chamfer with a ball mill and found it to verify correct, but not post correctly.  So I got like 6 lines of g-code- the wrong plane called out 5 times- G17, not G19, no G01, no feed callout, and went into code editor and have 135 lines of code there that apparently won’t post out so maybe the only solution is to hand trancribe the code out of code editor one line at a time?  I also found prior to that, no transform support on the debur either, and it would only hit chamfers on one side of the part- no indexesso thats a cimco simple toolpath. 

When these situations happen i have to add a machine group, pull in post ability lathe, post an operation to try to ascertain where my rotary position compares to mill turn, post the op in lathe, and then correct c position in cimco, and convert the code in cimco to be formatted properly for the other machine.  This is a pretty massive derailment of focus.  Add the many attempts with tools that won’t transform or post, and its pretty frustrating. 

[Leon82]

I don't see why they wouldn't work as long as you have a valid axis combination for the selected output

[cncappsjames]

I'd work with Postability. There is no reason those features described should not post out the way you would expect. There's probably some Misc. Int./Reals that need to be set.

[JParis]

11 hours ago, AGreen5 said:

Does anyone have a list of toolpaths and features of Mastercam that are not supported by mill turn?  I feel like that might be a good resource to have. 

If there are paths not supported, they are not even available to Mill-Turn to use

[huskermcdoogle]

3 hours ago, JParis said:

If there are paths not supported, they are not even available to Mill-Turn to use

I don't think he's using MT, I think he's just talking milling paths in lathe...  IMHO, most if not all of his issues are post related.

+1 for postability

[JParis]

25 minutes ago, huskermcdoogle said:

I don't think he's using MT, I think he's just talking milling paths in lathe...  IMHO, most if not all of his issues are post related.

+1 for postability

I know he has a seat of MT..

So I'm going on that assumption

[AGreen5]

5 hours ago, JParis said:

If there are paths not supported, they are not even available to Mill-Turn to use

I have a bunch of available paths that do not support transforms or that don’t seem compatible with the software.  Some say they are missing operation defaults, but others let me do the work and then I later find out something different is going to render them unfit for what I’m trying to do.  Like i used the deburr multi-axis path, and it verified correct, then output code with like 6-8 lines of g-code with no modal G01, and no feed commanded, spit out G17 5 times instead of G19 radial milling once, and that backplotted an all rapid zig zag.  When I went to the software and tried code editor i found that the path had 135 lines of code in the backplot style code editor on board in Mastercam nc.   I looked a little further into that one and it did not support toolpath transform y axis cross.  So i reselected all of the geometry, and it hit surfaces on one side of the part like it couldn’t command an index.  That may have been because i had it in 3-axis (x y z upper left) and it gets more confusing to operate the path from there with the what is your rotary axis que, which is like which axis are you talking about wcs? Actual axis name? There is no video explaining it. 
 

I’ve been running into a lot of paths that lose a type of behavior like profile ramp option in c axis contour is gone, and most c axis paths don’t support transforms. 
 

I work with a 6 figure 5 axis mill programmer at work and I showed him what I was running into trying to program one feature and we walked through 8-12 paths finding each one had some issue or another making them unable to attack a geometry it was like a chess game trying to wrangle the resolution we ended up drilling holes and plunge on point slotting on a geometry requiring c axis cutting with contour axis substitution.  It will work, but we should have been able to cut it with profile ramp and not needed the drill. That didn’t support a transform so we had to create geo for each feature. 
 

There appear to be a lot of toolpath nuances in mill turn and I feel like it is important to know what doesn’t work so that we can focus on the stuff that does work. 
 

i have been told im not on the latest version of the mill-turn TT1800SY Mach sim, but faced with a choice of lose all my functional edits or get a new mystery sim I’ve wanted to keep my sim but am beginning to wish I could understand what the new sim could offer.  Problems we have resolved since I bought my sim are correct locators, better tool loading, correct chucks, face milling sub arc output inverted, several plane combo g17-g18,g19 incorrect errors (obviously some persist).  So if I upgrade to latest I may get flipped arcs wrong planes, tool locator issues. 
 

I am not sure they have a description of what has been fixed in the newer sim I think I asked and I don’t think they have a report. 
 

This is a fanuc machine.  Pretty basic machine. 

[AGreen5]

My last edit request was can we output the plane combo on every operation.  Previous to that it could call G18 once for 5 operations and if anything manual got edited or sometimes a machine reset  could mean Im in the wrong plane combo without commanding one.  Now it spits out 5 or so up top, and sometimes a couple or three on every feature in the same operation. Maybe that last edit screwed up the sim.  I don’t know what is involved with editing it.  I was hoping for one plane combo call in the header on the op near the tool call. My recent work has involved a lot more c axis cutting lower path. 
 

 

One of my workarounds has been another group, pull down a postability machine, do the non mill-turn supported work in postability lathe, then output that, run it through a code convertor (kipware)to make it look like doosan code, then proof that manually and stitch it into the program in cimco.  That messes up the tree and takes a considerable amount of time. It would be cool to combine the toolpath and feature support of postability lathe with the benefits of mill turn.  I also can’t see c zero in the environments so i have to post a test operation to make sure my c indexes are identical with that method. 

[JParis]

Austin, if I still had a Dealer Hasp I could be of greater help.

Your biggest misconception is that this is simple. It is not. Neither the machine nor any software to program it are simple. I know many programmers who are good with 2 & 4 axis bul multi-axis and mill-turn is beyond them.

In all honesty,  each machine brand and model can present as a different beast. From a support standpoint your best course is your reseller and CNC as they are in the position to see the actual issues you present.

 

[cncappsjames]

Post issues ≠ software issues.

Get with @Postability and the issues will go away, it really is as simple as that. Especially for a FANUC controlled machine. 

[JParis]

Just now, cncappsjames said:

Post issues ≠ software issues.

Get with @Postability and the issues will go away, it really is as simple as that. Especially for a FANUC controlled machine. 

James, I'm not sure Postability is doing anything with the MT products.

Though I've not explored it

[cncappsjames]

I saw this and figured that's what he's got...

When these situations happen i have to add a machine group, pull in post ability lathe,...

[huskermcdoogle]

2 hours ago, JParis said:

I know he has a seat of MT..

I stand corrected.

I am going to go with that the dealer and CNC software need to be contacted to get this all sorted out.  Something doesn't seem right for sure.  As previously stated it could be any number of things.  When on the MT side of the software, it becomes even more of a unwieldy beast than normal, no better than CNC to search for the problem and come up with a solution, it is most certainly a requirement given the current restrictions.  I doubt the dealer switches and whatnot really would have any effect on the issues he is facing, unless there is a training issue in play.

Best of luck, very interested in seeing how this is resolved.

Also, I'd be happy to look at it if you wanted to send me a zip2go?  I have a partner license, so I should be able to work with your MT environment.

[AGreen5]

With mt products the edits are slower.  I do intend to call the reseller to see if there are any options. I feel like the mt product objective should be to support the full features of the software.  Maybe they add feature support every year and the new sim is more complete than mine from 4 years ago?   
 

Im probably ocd or something but I went back to work yesterday hoping to nail that chamfer so I could relax and put this out of my head. I failed.  

7 minutes ago, huskermcdoogle said:

I stand corrected.

I am going to go with that the dealer and CNC software need to be contacted to get this all sorted out.  Something doesn't seem right for sure.  As previously stated it could be any number of things.  When on the MT side of the software, it becomes even more of a unwieldy beast than normal, no better than CNC to search for the problem and come up with a solution, it is most certainly a requirement given the current restrictions.  I doubt the dealer switches and whatnot really would have any effect on the issues he is facing, unless there is a training issue in play.

Best of luck, very interested in seeing how this is resolved.

Also, I'd be happy to look at it if you wanted to send me a zip2go?  I have a partner license, so I should be able to work with your MT environment.

Thanks for the offer, I think I might have to get braver and try the latest sim version starting from scratch.  
 

A read me documenting historical process would be really useful to understanding what to expect. 
 

I wonder if there was a smarter play like postability and camplete or something.   Granted I do feel like the c axis y axis lathe is still more theoretically capable than most code software so to a certain extent you are going to run up against stuff the machine can do that gets hard to achieve in software. 
 

sometimes simple stuff, mastercam outputting motion bridging c0-c360 that fanuc wants to see probably as higher than 360 and lower than 360 to understand were not commanding full revolutions but rather motion in a smaller area.  

[Greg Williams]

Sounds like something is wrong with your defaults, I have tested Mill-Turn on plenty of different configurations and so far have not found any paths that don't post. All of the toolpaths that Mill-Turn has seem to post including deburr. Did you migrate an old mill-turn environment by any chance? If yes then perhaps that is the issue with the defaults.

Here is a deburr toolpath from Mill-Turn on an Integrex, its got a language warning as well.

 

[AGreen5]

I am getting default warning messages since the forced plane combo update with the reseller. 
 

Im on 2020 I didn’t transition to 2021. My plan for the future was to update on final releases. My sim is from 2017 spring of, the last edit may have for all I know sent me a 2021 sim.  
 

I think you might be right and the software and sim are conflicting now.   If they are date specific they should put the year in the name so people say wait I can’t use that.   
 

Hopefully something obvious is happening that can be fixed. 

[crazy^millman]

That old of a Sim is your issue plain and simple. They are constantly updating the software and staying with that old of a Sim in MT is a recipe for disaster.

2021 is much better, but they still have a lot of room for growth with MT.

[AGreen5]

I got the updated default 2020 sim now for my 2020 software- lost my correct chucks, but the operation posts properly.  The factory correct toolpackage developed 1.5-2 years after I requested it is now part of the std machine sim so I didn't lose that. I guess the lesson takeaway is that the sim needs to be swapped every time you upgrade the software year because the sim is only good for a particular year of software.  The change recently this year probably put me on a 2021 sim on 2020 software.  This morning I'm on a 2020 sim and 2020 software and that appears to be working well.   

In the process I also learned the tool vector used by the deburr path is apparently based on the WCS-  not the tool plane.  So Z and Y are choices in 3 axis that output radial attitudes with different indexes relative to WCS Z and Y, and the choice X in 3 axis, gives me a face approach like a 90 degree live tool would use.  The transform is still not supported for Deburr, which doesn't totally make sense since the "transform" is just the same code at different C indexes.  

The X choice face approach was not capable of being posted and the error it was giving me was IOF or something, not mentioning the tool being incorrectly loaded, it appears Deburr only supports radial live tool approaches.  

[AGreen5]

I noticed some things about the "Default Mach Sim" that don't make much sense. 

The machine needs:

G00G28U0.V0.

G28W0.       In order to be at a position that allows a turret tool change (the machine won't change unless the turret is Z referenced as well.  The "default sim" doesn't output G28W0. So the machine wouldn't ever be able to tool change without manual edits to every operation.     

 It also called M262 high gear once, there are no gears in the spindles- the machine is direct drive on both main and sub spindles back to 2013, we just sold a 2013 TT1800SY which had direct drive main and subspindles.  

The M05P11 call is after the reference, not before, and should always be M315P11 (main spindle stop without confirmation) before reference so the machine shuts off the spindle as the turret references in overlapping time.  We actually had a ladder writer for Doosan out here from New Jersey, and he's actually by sheer coincidence out here tonight fixing load monitoring on two new TT1800SY II's with the different and newer 15" I series controls, and he gave us M315P11 (main) and M315P21 (Sub) so both spindles can recognize without confirmation.  

The post calls M08 std pressure coolant, which we swap to M07 high pressure coolant.  The M09's are called, but unnecessary for low pressure operation (std config) and actually undesirable with high pressure coolant because they just wear out the coolant motors which would rather stay on and allow the dump solenoids to redirect coolant for the turret index.   They maybe should have a high pressure coolant version of the post and a standard pressure version.  I would bet half the customers get high pressure coolant on these.  

I also think it would be cool to just output 

M110 interference check off under the safety reference on the operation header and M111 interference check off cancel under the reference on the footer- standard.  The Doosan interference check kills complete execution on about 40% of tools for no good reason, and just wastes floor time.  

 

 

[cncappsjames]

It's not a g-code simulator like an ICAM, NC Simul CAMplete or Vericut. It doesn't "know" you need this or that to do a tool change. It only knows to do the toolchange and outputs whatever the post says to.

[Chris In-House Solutions]

@AGreen5 In-House Solutions has the ability to modify the .machine file for you.  If you want to reach out to us we can discuss options for making the changes you require.  Send me a PM and I can provide you with the email address to reach out to for these modifications.  

[AGreen5]

After Prototek helped me with information about sims needing to match software model years, which seemed to imply the wizard doesn't bring a mill turn sim from one year to the next (something I was previously unaware of before working with Prototek very recently), I was able to get a new sim that needed some changes, but they told me to send them an example of code with edits, which I did, and most of those edits were supported by mill-turn, and they were able to get me edits rather quickly, like about a week, which was the fastest set of edits I've received so far on Mill-Turn, and those edits seemed to pretty much nail the changes.  

I still get some of the wrong plane combos in posted code- that seems to be a struggle for Mill-turn (calling G17- 18 19 correctly), but that's fine as I can edit those rather easily, and otherwise it's appearing to post pretty solid code.  It's hard to make a call on how solid a post is in a multi-axis lathe with two turrets because there are so many combinations (face polar, face c interpolated feeds, face Y on upper and lower on both sides (12 combos), and radial y and C both sides upper and lower (8 combos), and turning on both sides upper and lower (4 combos) and so many different toolpaths blowing up those combinations to possibly hundreds of combinations, but it appears the model year and current edits are working pretty solidly.   

I have noticed one area where mill/turn and lathe are hard to work with and that is if you are running C interpolated feeds across C0.  It would be vastly more functional if the software would post offset 360 so the numbers didn't cross 359 to C0+ causing erroneous 360 rotations of the chuck in machining, but that isn't settup to do that.  So if you are doing something C interpolated across zero you have to hope you can post it with an axial offset and Cimco simple math it to compensate it to position about C360- bridging into the 360-720 degree second rotation in a way that won't require crossing zero to make that geometry on a part.  Fanuc reads crossing C360 to 361 as continuing a revolution, but crossing 360 to code ZERO as a full rotation reposition to a place 360 degrees separated. 

 

 

[huskermcdoogle]

5 hours ago, AGreen5 said:

Fanuc reads crossing C360 to 361 as continuing a revolution, but crossing 360 to code ZERO as a full rotation reposition to a place 360 degrees separated.

At least in a mill configuration, this depends on how your parameters are setup.  You can have it either way if you want.  Interestingly enough when parameter are set such that 359 - 0 is a 1 degree move (shortest distance), a reference return isn't necessarily going to follow those rules, be wary.... I wouldn't imagine the rules would change on a T control.

[AGreen5]

 

Do you happen to know what parameter and what this is called for manual searchability? It would be useful to know what parameter that is, and what if any unintended consequences occur by changing it. 

I have only owned Fanuc subspindle machines from Doosan and Yama Seiki, 11 machines of 7 different models (4 models if you don't count control and facelift upgrade "model name II" changes) spanning 2013 to 2021 production (31I-A, 31I-B, OITF, I series controls) and they have all behaved the same for motion across C zero.   I think this is the default method Fanuc uses. 

I'm not sure parameter changes are necessarily the right way to confront a programming problem, but maybe they could be a viable solution?  There isn't really a great way to figure out how to change machine behavior.  Fanuc has a hotline of people who have little training and read the manual to try to find solutions for customers, and Fanuc tries to push the issues at the builders, and the builders and Fanuc often push the issues back and forth.  Obviously every new machine will come with that "normal" behavior.

It would also be cool for Mastercam to have a parameter to flip C rotary motion across zero to post positive 360 degrees so it works in the default Fanuc configuration. 

[huskermcdoogle]

4 hours ago, AGreen5 said:

Do you happen to know what parameter and what this is called for manual searchability?

Look up info on the roll over function.  Should be under parameters, 1007 and 1008.