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Optirough not recognizing rest material properly


Programinator
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So i have a block with a large diameter through it.  I have to put a pocket that goes thru the diameter that is already in there.  I want to use optirough and avoid cutting air.  So i have the toolpath referencing a stock model that has that diameter already in it.  Problem is that it is not seeing that there is air there and cuts as if im not using rest material.  You can see the green rampdown moves when it should not ramp when it gets to a certain depth.  Any help would be nice1397973974_2021-02-1512_28_22-D__Users_Shawn_Desktop_Forbesfiles_BlueOrigin_001-074-3213_001-074-3213-101MI.thumb.jpg.b759589be52e3c070224e305d335a5d3.jpg1627483897_2021-02-1512_29_16-D__Users_Shawn_Desktop_Forbesfiles_BlueOrigin_001-074-3213_001-074-3213-101MI.jpg.596f9bf56a8a085cf64779c3c8bfb057.jpg1703683344_2021-02-1512_34_58-SurfaceHighSpeedToolpaths-DynamicOptiRough.jpg.c997356961a1275f842f4e90375d5ffa.jpg

 

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12 minutes ago, Programinator said:

So i have a block with a large diameter through it.  I have to put a pocket that goes thru the diameter that is already in there.  I want to use optirough and avoid cutting air.  So i have the toolpath referencing a stock model that has that diameter already in it.  Problem is that it is not seeing that there is air there and cuts as if im not using rest material.  You can see the green rampdown moves when it should not ramp when it gets to a certain depth.  Any help would be nice

 

Do a search on the forum for "rest material mushroom effect".  That will give you a better explanation than I can in a short amount of time (thanks Ron). 

You could probably split that up in to a few different 2d dynamic paths at different depths with air regions defined to get the efficiency you're looking for. 

Or wait for someone to come along to offer a better suggestion. 

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1 hour ago, neurosis said:

Do a search on the forum for "rest material mushroom effect".  That will give you a better explanation than I can in a short amount of time (thanks Ron). 

You could probably split that up in to a few different 2d dynamic paths at different depths with air regions defined to get the efficiency you're looking for. 

Or wait for someone to come along to offer a better suggestion. 

I agree the Mushroom effect is the issue here. Mastercam is not aware of anything past the top of the part. To know past a certain point you must have in process stock models and break up the programming to use each progressive stock model. 

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1 hour ago, crazy^millman said:

I agree the Mushroom effect is the issue here. Mastercam is not aware of anything past the top of the part. To know past a certain point you must have in process stock models and break up the programming to use each progressive stock model. 

Thats what i had to do.  3 or 4 in process stock models.  Glad i went through the hassle because it cut the cycle time in half which was significant in this 17-4 material.  thanks for the help.  I was pulling my hair out.  I found the solution on one of your old posts Ron, so thanks.  Thanks to Neurosis also.

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1 hour ago, Programinator said:

Thats what i had to do.  3 or 4 in process stock models.  Glad i went through the hassle because it cut the cycle time in half which was significant in this 17-4 material.  thanks for the help.  I was pulling my hair out.  I found the solution on one of your old posts Ron, so thanks.  Thanks to Neurosis also.

On hard material this is a good process to follow. We have a good tool that is just not able to fully do what is needed in these situations. Maybe 2022 has improved on this, but without some time to test I cannot be sure.

Glad I can help.

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  • 3 weeks later...

"3-4 in prosses stock models"  are we talking about stock models after each tool path? is that what you select on material rest?

Tried looking for  "rest material mushroom effect" in the forum but couldn't find it? 

can anyone shed some light?

Thanks in advance

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15 hours ago, jean said:

"3-4 in prosses stock models"  are we talking about stock models after each tool path? is that what you select on material rest?

Tried looking for  "rest material mushroom effect" in the forum but couldn't find it? 

can anyone shed some light?

Thanks in advance

I call the top view down effect of how Stock models work a Mushroom. Lets say you are roughing a 3" round part, but the stock shaped like a Mushroom. Mastercam takes the biggest cross section of the mushroom and projects it down to the bottom of the stock. Let say the mushroom from bottom of the largest shape to the floor is 22" tall and 20" in diameter, but the part you are cutting is only 3" in diameter. The toolpath is not aware you have no stock past the bottom of that mushroom shape. The toolpath will then keep roughing air for that last shape all the way to bottom which creates a lot of wasted air cutting. When you change the cutting to the bottom of the mushroom shape with one toolpath and stop. Make a new stock model with that taken into account stop. The next toolpath from that point down you eliminate a lot of wasted air cutting. I simplified the whole explanation I just gave you into the mushroom effect. Hopefully that makes sense.

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The "Mushroom effect" can also be described as- Optirough does not recognize air undercuts and will process the stock model as if any voids or undercuts are still stock material. Thus, removing just the top of the "mushroom" to expose the air region and remove the undercut scenario is what Ron and others are explaining.

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Mastercam has a Toolpath which can rough stock, and detect the Undercut Stock Condition.

Mill Toolpaths > Multiaxis > Pattern > Triangle Mesh.

When you first get into the toolpath, the 'undercut stock' box will not activate. This is because the Cut Pattern is set to 'Parallel'.

Set the Cut Pattern to 'Rough', and the type to 'Dynamic'. (Setting it to Rough, enables the 'stock has undercuts' checkbox. You still have to turn it on...)

This path gives you very similar cutting motion to the normal "dynamic" paths in Mastercam. The only drawback is the output is 'vector-based', although there are some Filtering options which I haven't had a chance to fully disect yet.

Triangle-Mesh_Rough_Stock-Undercut.PNG

Stock-Page_Undercut.PNG

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2 hours ago, Thee Byte™ said:

What about using Trim Toolpath?

Trim Toolpath.png

MC2022 Pb2 Trim Toolpath.mcam

Not sure how much functionality has been added to trim since I last used it. Thing is every shape and every part present their own challenges and trying to take one solution and have it fit all possible scenarios is hard. The using of progressive stock models is one solution I know works. Good thing about them is they also act like sanity checks to see if what you think your cutting got cut the way you need it cut. With Trim you would have to run it through Verify to know if you got the results you were looking for. With stock models that track the shape through then you have them to catch and see thing you might miss otherwise.

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20 minutes ago, crazy^millman said:

Not sure how much functionality has been added to trim since I last used it. Thing is every shape and every part present their own challenges and trying to take one solution and have it fit all possible scenarios is hard. The using of progressive stock models is one solution I know works. Good thing about them is they also act like sanity checks to see if what you think your cutting got cut the way you need it cut. With Trim you would have to run it through Verify to know if you got the results you were looking for. With stock models that track the shape through then you have them to catch and see thing you might miss otherwise.

Okay, thank you for your valuable feedback, perhaps this topic will merit further exploration into the land of "mushrooms".

 

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7 minutes ago, jean said:

how do you reply to peoples comments on threads, Because i try to respond but it seems like it just adds another comment within the thread?

Thank you

Press the quote button.

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On 3/4/2021 at 1:03 PM, Colin Gilchrist said:

Not really, it turns out. This is a 5X Path, with Vector Output, so it all ends up being point-to-point motion.

I have noticed that it will generate very quickly though, so although it creates a ton of code, that seems to be the only drawback.

I decided to give it a shot on an odd shaped part were working on. 

I liked the way the path turned out.  It took me a few minutes to get it dialed in.

The file size was about 10X what it was using 3 separate optirough operations with multiple stock models.   ACK!   :lol: 

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44 minutes ago, neurosis said:

I decided to give it a shot on an odd shaped part were working on. 

I liked the way the path turned out.  It took me a few minutes to get it dialed in.

The file size was about 10X what it was using 3 separate optirough operations with multiple stock models.   ACK!   :lol: 

DataServer?

The file-size is the one issue. Remember when we had the 3X > 5X conversion path? We need the opposite now! Lol, but only for a Triangle Mesh Rouging path. (Always Planar!)

It would need to take the Tool Tip motion, and convert it to 3-Axis Point-to-Point (basically, every 3X path, before the filter), and then run the standard Line/Arc Filter to first filter out the excess line moves, and then run the Arc Filter.

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