I Am Finally Making 5 Axis Toolpaths!

[CNC_Newbie]

I just wanted to publicly celebrate a milestone for me.  I can now generate some basic 5 axis tool paths in Mastercam.  Colon G. Is the man, he is the man responsible for helping me understand what I was doing wrong. I have so much to learn, but it feels amazing to actually set up a model with drive lines, set the axis I want the Spindle to follow and it actually work.

 

I still need to gain better control of the spindle position. When using the Curve 5 axis. I need to learn how to switch from Axis control via Line to Around a point and blend the 2 operations into a single cut.

I’ll be making some videos with screen cap soon to show exactly what I want am trying to accomplish soon. Trying to describe what I would like to learn with a very limited mastercam vocabulary is very challenging.

 

for example let’s say I want to side mill a line that has a straight section and a curve. If I use lines for axis control for the straight section it works great, however if I use the lines around the curve section and try to make a tool path in one go straight and curve, the spindle end of the cutter does strange things, It’s hard to tell which of the axis control lines to adjust to correct the spindle position.   I bet your lost with me trying to explain it, but if I show you exactly what I am seeing, instantly you will know what I am trying to convey 

 

Learning mastercam has not been easy, in fact it’s darn right hard.  

 

 

[megaman]

There are so many options to click and try.its not easy to get clean paths all the time. Like anything else  it takes time.

CONGRATS!   and yes thanks Colin !

[DUM1]

CONGRATS !

I too have recently entered the fifth axis world , and I would have agree that it is kind of tough , especially when you have no training or help .

So glad to have this forum to turn to when I get stumped , there are a lot of smart people here.

[CNC_Newbie]

I programmed my first  part with 5axis moves tonight.  I must of learned more than I realized. I actually am starting to understand this stuff just a little. Now that  can use the Curve toolpath. Time to learn some of the other multi Axis toolpaths  like Parallel and Swarf and Flow.  

 

I'm not sure that I will be using very many of these tool paths to do the kind of stuff we do..  Like I said before, we trim out parts from thermo-molded plastics.  Lots of side cutting and holes.

 

I do also need to learn the drilling operations. For the holes in this part  I just created an edge chain of the hole, lowered it  .025 past the bottom of the model (via dynamic transform). Then used the 5 Axis curve to cut the holes. 

I need to.learn the drilling operations as there is way more flexibility..Also I need to learn how to set up multiple passes on each of the toolpaths. I'll use the multiple passes as a rough cut then a finish cut  laslty I want to use a debit lolipop mill  to Chamfer some of the edges.

 

The very next thing I need to learn is how to set up the Simulator to match our machine and to mock up our fixture heights so we can test for clearances and such.

 

Oh also I want to set up a location hole for setup parts, so when the boys in the shop set up a new job that is they can  get the locator dial lined up in the hole on a setup part, the X,y,z will be registered  perfectly.  Take the 2 day.setups down to 30-45 mins.   

 

Hope everyone now doing well.  I just thought I would share a little bit of my progress. 5 months to go.

 

 

 

 

 

[So not a Guru]

On 3/14/2021 at 5:41 AM, CNC_Newbie said:

I programmed my first  part with 5axis moves tonight.  I must of learned more than I realized. I actually am starting to understand this stuff just a little. Now that  can use the Curve toolpath. Time to learn some of the other multi Axis toolpaths  like Parallel and Swarf and Flow.  

 

I'm not sure that I will be using very many of these tool paths to do the kind of stuff we do..  Like I said before, we trim out parts from thermo-molded plastics.  Lots of side cutting and holes.

 

I do also need to learn the drilling operations. For the holes in this part  I just created an edge chain of the hole, lowered it  .025 past the bottom of the model (via dynamic transform). Then used the 5 Axis curve to cut the holes. 

I need to.learn the drilling operations as there is way more flexibility..Also I need to learn how to set up multiple passes on each of the toolpaths. I'll use the multiple passes as a rough cut then a finish cut  laslty I want to use a debit lolipop mill  to Chamfer some of the edges.

 

The very next thing I need to learn is how to set up the Simulator to match our machine and to mock up our fixture heights so we can test for clearances and such.

 

Oh also I want to set up a location hole for setup parts, so when the boys in the shop set up a new job that is they can  get the locator dial lined up in the hole on a setup part, the X,y,z will be registered  perfectly.  Take the 2 day.setups down to 30-45 mins.   

 

Hope everyone now doing well.  I just thought I would share a little bit of my progress. 5 months to go.

 

For 5x drill geometry, use "Model Prep/Hole Axis" when you click on the wall of a hole, the arrow should point to the direction of your spindle. If it doesn't click on the line and it will switch directions.

Then to create the drill op, window the point/line combos.

[Colin Gilchrist]

That is awesome to hear Tom. I'm glad you are making some progress on figuring this out.

It isn't easy, because there is a ton of mathematics taking place in the background behind all of these operations. We're standing on the shoulders of giants, and using the tools they have built for us, to make thousands, or millions of calculations, in order to make our machines dance the way we want them to, and also accurately cut a part.

To be fair; you jumped into the deep end of the pool, without a lot of training, when you decided to pick up 5-Axis machining as the thing you were starting with. I started with 2 1/2 axis programming on a Proto-trak Mill. Then I moved up to learning 3-Axis programming, then added 4-Axis Vertical, and finally 4-Axis Horizontal, before getting to 5-Axis Milling. Also throw in 2-Axis and 4-Axis Lathes into the mix. There is just a lot to learn, but the sky's the limit in this industry, if you keep on increasing your skills.

Part of learning how to machine these parts is learning how to construct and work with both 2-dimensional and 3-dimensional geometry. Points, Lines, Arcs, and Splines form the basic building blocks of 3D Geometry, like Surfaces and Solid models.

The best thing about CNC Programming for me is that you can see a direct link between mathematics and constructing "real world" things.

In order for you to reduce setup time, you've got to understand how the Post Processor works, and how your machine is setup in the real world.

Since you've got a "gantry router", your machine has "head-head" geometry. To properly set up a Post Processor, you will need to be able to take some physical measurements on your machine, so we can calculate the "pivot distance" between your center of rotation, and the "face of the spindle". Then, you'll need to accurately measure the "Gauge length" of each 'Tool Assembly'. This is the distance from your reference point on the spindle (face, typically), to the tool tip.

At Boeing, we maintained a library of Tool Assemblies, and each tool assembly had a specific holder (size and length), and the requirement when changing tools in our tool room was to maintain +-0.002 on Tool Assembly Length. That way, if you were using "T43", you knew it was a specific length.

Inside the Post Processor, this Pivot Length and Tool Length get added together, to offset "the driven point" of the machine, relative to the Tool Tip. This is the "original" or "old-school" of mechanical compensation, where people made 5-Axis programs before "software compensation methods", like Tilted Work Plane (G68.2) or Tool Center Point Control (G43.4).

What are you doing this coming Saturday? Do you want to try and do a "live session" on YouTube? For training purposes, nothing beats "real interaction" with an instructor. It will depend of course on if I'm in the middle of moving, or not. Some things are still up in the air at the moment.

[The Chipmaker]

 I just started programming in 5 axis. Big learning curve. It is crazy the math and science that goes into these machines! We bought a DMG Mori DMU 160 FD Duo block. It has turning and milling capabilities. Nice machine.

[jjones61]

On 3/14/2021 at 5:41 AM, CNC_Newbie said:

I programmed my first  part with 5axis moves tonight.  I must of learned more than I realized. I actually am starting to understand this stuff just a little. Now that  can use the Curve toolpath. Time to learn some of the other multi Axis toolpaths  like Parallel and Swarf and Flow.  

 

I'm not sure that I will be using very many of these tool paths to do the kind of stuff we do..  Like I said before, we trim out parts from thermo-molded plastics.  Lots of side cutting and holes.

 

I do also need to learn the drilling operations. For the holes in this part  I just created an edge chain of the hole, lowered it  .025 past the bottom of the model (via dynamic transform). Then used the 5 Axis curve to cut the holes. 

I need to.learn the drilling operations as there is way more flexibility..Also I need to learn how to set up multiple passes on each of the toolpaths. I'll use the multiple passes as a rough cut then a finish cut  laslty I want to use a debit lolipop mill  to Chamfer some of the edges.

 

The very next thing I need to learn is how to set up the Simulator to match our machine and to mock up our fixture heights so we can test for clearances and such.

 

Oh also I want to set up a location hole for setup parts, so when the boys in the shop set up a new job that is they can  get the locator dial lined up in the hole on a setup part, the X,y,z will be registered  perfectly.  Take the 2 day.setups down to 30-45 mins.   

 

Hope everyone now doing well.  I just thought I would share a little bit of my progress. 5 months to go.

 

 

 

 

 

First, Congrats!! 

That photo brings back a lot of memories...my first 5 axis programming was doing exactly that...trimming out plastic parts...on a Motion Master! (I did have about 10 years of 3 axis programming experience prior tho...starting out by jumping directly into full 5 axis is kinda like hopping into an F15 and trying to go for a joyride!!)

For what it's worth I used the curve toolpath for probably 95% of all my toolpaths. I would just pull the wires off the inside edge of the part and then create and edit Tool Axis Control lines until it looked good in backplot.  There may be a better way but this was simple and I like simple!

Another thing I would strongly recommend is learning how Tool Center Point  (which btw, is G48 on the Fagor controllers )  works and how to use it...that will make your life a lot easier! 

One  more suggestion then I'll quit my babbling...instead of offsetting your wire to control the toolpath depth change the vector depth (Parameters/Collision Control). If you put a negative number in it will lower your toolpath.

Again, congrats and keep plugging away at it...it will get easier! 

 

[Festus]

3 hours ago, jjones61 said:

First, Congrats!! 

That photo brings back a lot of memories...my first 5 axis programming was doing exactly that...trimming out plastic parts...on a Motion Master! (I did have about 10 years of 3 axis programming experience prior tho...starting out by jumping directly into full 5 axis is kinda like hopping into an F15 and trying to go for a joyride!!)

For what it's worth I used the curve toolpath for probably 95% of all my toolpaths. I would just pull the wires off the inside edge of the part and then create and edit Tool Axis Control lines until it looked good in backplot.  There may be a better way but this was simple and I like simple! 

Another thing I would strongly recommend is learning how Tool Center Point  (which btw, is G48 on the Fagor controllers )  works and how to use it...that will make your life a lot easier! 

One  more suggestion then I'll quit my babbling...instead of offsetting your wire to control the toolpath depth change the vector depth (Parameters/Collision Control). If you put a negative number in it will lower your toolpath.

Again, congrats and keep plugging away at it...it will get easier!  

 

we used to use the Moldplus addition to MC for generating geo and vectors for trimming parts like this! you can just move your tool around as needed for clearance! I'm not even sure if the newer version use Moldplus? it was a great tool.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Festus said:

we used to use the Moldplus addition to MC for generating geo and vectors for trimming parts like this! you can just move your tool around as needed for clearance! I'm not even sure if the newer version use Moldplus? it was a great tool.

Moldplus is still around. We have it here.

https://moldplus.com/

[CNC_Newbie]

On 3/15/2021 at 2:22 PM, Colin Gilchrist said:

 

What are you doing this coming Saturday? Do you want to try and do a "live session" on YouTube? For training purposes, nothing beats "real interaction" with an instructor. It will depend of course on if I'm in the middle of moving, or not. Some things are still up in the air at the moment.

 

Ill follow up by Friday via PM to let you know if I am free.

I jumped into 5 Axis because this is what the other programmer was doing and I wanted to learn.  I have played with several 3D packages in Modeling and Animation. C4D,Maya, Blender, Houdini so I have a good understanding on the 3D world with respect to Splines, Points, Faces, and U,V's in a NURBS Modeler.  C4D is an AMAZING software in the 3D world from an Arts perspective.  Check out this 

 I was always the guy a friends would reach out to with a problem because I would read the manual and make stuff work, This led me to many hobbies and several businesses. I have built a few little CNC machines (OX CNC, many 3D printers), and done some build tutorial using lots of Open Source tools to run them. I have been playing if electronics and PC's since I was a kid and I am old now, In my custom bike shop I built the whole bike and used a Bridgeport and a Monarch lathe to make all the parts and notch my tubing. Tig welded my frames, fabbed and welded my own gas tanks, painted everything and would do and the engine and tranny work once the various kits came in from the machinist

I literally was a stay at home dad for 5  years and this job came up really close to my house and I told the man when he hired me that if you give me 6 months I'll run that whole department, and program all his parts 1 am at 1 month 2 weeks, I plan to make my goals with the help of you folks. I never thought I would be learning a new trade at this late in the game. I have always been the one to be helping others, now I find myself being the one with hat in hand, 
 

[CNC_Newbie]

12 hours ago, jjones61 said:

"to control the toolpath depth change the vector depth (Parameters/Collision Control). If you put a negative number in it will lower your toolpath."

 

This is amazing,, I know Exactly how I will use it. I can put in a positive number and copy and paste all of the operations (made with Curve) and use it as roughing passes.

Whoo Woo. this is a good piece to know.

 

 

[CNC_Newbie]

On 3/16/2021 at 1:38 PM, Thee Byte™ said:

Moldplus is still around. We have it here.

https://moldplus.com/

I want this so badly. I am used to making polygon, point, edge, face, heck any geometry slelections in a simple way (Similar to the Auto in Moldplus)  when using different 3D modeling software programs.   Loop selections of edges, splines, and points are invaluable  and make 3D modeling much easier vs selecting various geometry one face at a time. I know there are many ways to make selections in Mastercam, however they are not as intuitive as they are in many of other Nurbs Modelers I have worked with.  The Mold Plus options should be standard features in Mastercam, IMHO.

[Colin Gilchrist]

19 minutes ago, CNC_Newbie said:

I want this so badly. I am used to making polygon, point, edge, face, heck any geometry slelections in a simple way (Similar to the Auto in Moldplus)  when using different 3D modeling software programs.   Loop selections of edges, splines, and points are invaluable  and make 3D modeling much easier vs selecting various geometry one face at a time. I know there are many ways to make selections in Mastercam, however they are not as intuitive as they are in many of other Nurbs Modelers I have worked with.  The Mold Plus options should be standard features in Mastercam, IMHO.

It is a very nice interface, which makes creating and editing the path very easy. However, we can still use the existing Toolpath options to create paths without having to struggle, once you learn the various tools you do have access to. 

[Guest]

28 minutes ago, CNC_Newbie said:

I want this so badly. I am used to making polygon, point, edge, face, heck any geometry slelections in a simple way (Similar to the Auto in Moldplus)  when using different 3D modeling software programs.   Loop selections of edges, splines, and points are invaluable  and make 3D modeling much easier vs selecting various geometry one face at a time. I know there are many ways to make selections in Mastercam, however they are not as intuitive as they are in many of other Nurbs Modelers I have worked with.  The Mold Plus options should be standard features in Mastercam, IMHO.

I'm not familiar with what you are talking about, I only use the catia translator..

[CNC_Newbie]

1 hour ago, Thee Byte™ said:

I'm not familiar with what you are talking about, I only use the catia translator..

Ini this video, Mold Plus shows an (Auto Selection)  edge selection is made and a 5 Axis tool path is auto generated. I think these kinds of selections should be already in Mastercam, Lets say you are in selection mode, you should be able to decide what you are selecting (edges, faces, points, splines, UV's, ect), then how you want to make the selection, (loop,line,point,edge, ect). Almost all of the modelers I have ever used have similar selection methods. You choose the selection method, you can combine them as well, then hover the area and it gives you a preview of the selection if you were to click and select it.

As to the rest of the 5 Axis Mold Plus features, where it generates a 5 Axis tool path automatically and allow you to drag the spingle and or axis control lines to change orientation, this functionality should be standard inside Mastercam. Oh How I wish Mastercam was Open Source, we would have all sorts of Plugins and Scripts to do various tasks like Mold Plus. 

 

See this part of the video of Mold Plus in action

 

[Guest]

 

5 minutes ago, CNC_Newbie said:

Oh How I wish Mastercam was Open Source, we would have all sorts of Plugins and Scripts to do various tasks like Mold Plus. 

We do have all those things.

I write plugins for Mastercam every day.

[CNC_Newbie]

1 hour ago, Colin Gilchrist said:

It is a very nice interface, which makes creating and editing the path very easy. However, we can still use the existing Toolpath options to create paths without having to struggle, once you learn the various tools you do have access to. 

I totally Agree. I am just looking at this from a Newbie Perspective. Mastercam is a professional software that Businesses pay many thousands of dollars just to have access to the software, then folks make a living knowing the inside and outs of how to program with mastercam. What Mold Plus does is what I kind of expected when I first heard of mastercam,  I expected that I would be able to fumble my way through (based on past experiences in 3D softwares), but it's just not the case. You have to dig in and ask lots of questions. 

[Guest]

It's not open source Mastercam provides a c++ sdk and a .net dll with all sorts of functionality.

[CNC_Newbie]

5 minutes ago, Thee Byte™ said:

 

We do have all those things.

I write plugins for Mastercam every day.

Ahhh, but they are not Open Source

 

3 minutes ago, Thee Byte™ said:

It's not open source Mastercam provides a c++ sdk and a .net dll with all sorts of functionality.

Where does one DL the SDK?

EDIT... I see the Mastercam and the C-Hook SDK.

 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, CNC_Newbie said:

Ahhh, but they are not Open Source

 

Is there an SDK or something for MC?

 

Yes, if you go to third party developers on Mastercam.com under community, there are links on the left of the screen to the sdk.

 

Heres an example of one of my creations.

 

Here i made a video about dwnlding the sdk a while ago

[CNC_Newbie]

4 minutes ago, Thee Byte™ said:

Yes, if you go to third party developers on Mastercam.com under community, there are links on the left of the screen to the sdk.

 

Heres an example of one of my creations.

 

Here i made a video about dwnlding the sdk a while ago

When I am ready Ill play with the SDK. My hands are full ATM.  I love learning what's behind the curtain. It would be fun to create the selection modes I want in Mastercam. 

[CNC_Newbie]

This is the kind of selection I want to make on models In Mastercam, Is that possible? To go into a selction mode and select an edge, surface, splines, or points that are all connected via a continuous loop. 

 

 

[So not a Guru]

Not exactly the same, but the selection filters along the right edge of MC provide a similar function. Each filter is split diagonally, the upper left selects all of the specified entities and the lower right selects only the selected entities.

[Guest]

6 hours ago, CNC_Newbie said:

This is the kind of selection I want to make on models In Mastercam, Is that possible? To go into a selction mode and select an edge, surface, splines, or points that are all connected via a continuous loop. 

 

 

Not the same software but yes, you could do something similar..