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Best way to Align Model Angle To Match Actual Fixture Angle


CNC_Newbie
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Lets say you are given some random solid model and you need to place it in 3D space to match the angle of a real world part that sits on top of a fixture 

 

Here is the story.  I programmed a part and I aligned it in such a way that the x&y were parallel to the wcs and Z was up (+). Then I raised it up 23” on Z from the 0,0,0 world point in Mastercam to represent the hight of the fixture.

My program posted and ran on our machine (yeah!!!…1st attempt and it ran, I was so excited) .  I used the g54 offset to move it where I wanted on the table. However the actual part doesn’t sit flat on X&Y like I have it in mastercam. The part is at some unknown angle on a fixture so I need to tilt (rotate) the model in mastercam to match the angle of the part on the fixture.

 

How would you do this?  Should I just measure the front and back of the part and create some boxes or lines to sit my part on in mastercam, or should I use an angle gauge on the fixture and try to use that measured angle to make the rotation? (Dynamic, is that the best way)

 

Remember, this is all new to me and I just want to know how you guys deal with this sort of thing. 

 

BTW this model (a step file) and was on its side when I opened it and I had to set it up to match origin WCS. Also I had to get creative to make all of the cuts on a model who’s geometry has broken lines and open points on the edges (Not all 3d model makers are good at their jobs I guess or some serious degradation occurred in translation between software packages)

 

Thanks guys,   T

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 measure the Z part in 3 far off places  on the part .  I would measure the first two to form a  vertical line to join them . 

Now rotate  the part so that  the three Zees match up, et voila the part is aligned with the world. Just to be 110% sure , i'd measure two random points in Mcam and see if they

measure up in the real world.

Gracjan

PS . Now if you had a 5-ax Heidenhain  you would need to maesure 4 co-planar points and the control would turn on the machine plane function on and make the plane parallel to the XY-plane

 

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20 hours ago, pullo said:

 measure the Z part in 3 far off places  on the part .  I would measure the first two to form a  vertical line to join them . 

Now rotate  the part so that  the three Zees match up, et voila the part is aligned with the world. Just to be 110% sure , i'd measure two random points in Mcam and see if they

measure up in the real world.

Gracjan

PS . Now if you had a 5-ax Heidenhain  you would need to maesure 4 co-planar points and the control would turn on the machine plane function on and make the plane parallel to the XY-plane

 

I am trying to follow your directions. Seeing it in Action I could understand easily.  I will try to follow it again and figure this out. 

 

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I will put this in another way . You need two rotations of the part on your screen to align it with the real world part.

1. I will choose three points   X0 Y-100, X0 Y100 and X100 Y50. 

2. Measure the Z at X0 Y-100. by shifting the WCS datum point , you can align your model Z to the real world . So now we have one point

in Mcam aligned.

3. Measure the Z in the real world at point X0 Y100 and draw the point in mcam(lets say its X0Y100Z0.2) . Project that point onto your model (let's say its X0Y100 Z 0.1 ) . Now join your first point X0Y-100 Z0 with two lines to points X0Y100Z0.2 and X0Y100Z0.1 . 

By looking from the RIGHT SIDE and measuring the angle between the two lines you will know the precise angle you have to rotate the part

DYNAMICALLY to align point 2.

5.Now project point 3 (X100 Y50 and lets say Z0.3) onto the surface of the part. Now by looking from the FRONT and drawing the triangle 

as described in the previous step you will have figured out the second rotation.

Gracjan

 

 

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On 4/9/2021 at 2:01 AM, pullo said:

 measure the Z part in 3 far off places  on the part .  I would measure the first two to form a  vertical line to join them . 

Now rotate  the part so that  the three Zees match up, et voila the part is aligned with the world. Just to be 110% sure , i'd measure two random points in Mcam and see if they

measure up in the real world.

Gracjan

PS . Now if you had a 5-ax Heidenhain  you would need to maesure 4 co-planar points and the control would turn on the machine plane function on and make the plane parallel to the XY-plane

 

Fanuc with G68.2 and G43.4, Siemens with TRAORI and CYCLE 800, HAAS G254 and G255, Okuma with G169 CALL OO88  easy peasy on any modern machien with a newer Control. Just so we are all on the same page my Friend. 😉

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3 hours ago, crazy^millman said:

Fanuc with G68.2 and G43.4, Siemens with TRAORI and CYCLE 800, HAAS G254 and G255, Okuma with G169 CALL OO88  easy peasy on any modern machien with a newer Control. Just so we are all on the same page my Friend. 😉

We are using OLD stuff, 8055M Fagor. One day maybe Ill have a chance to play with a modern machine. 

12 hours ago, pullo said:

I will put this in another way . You need two rotations of the part on your screen to align it with the real world part.

1. I will choose three points   X0 Y-100, X0 Y100 and X100 Y50. 

2. Measure the Z at X0 Y-100. by shifting the WCS datum point , you can align your model Z to the real world . So now we have one point

in Mcam aligned.

3. Measure the Z in the real world at point X0 Y100 and draw the point in mcam(lets say its X0Y100Z0.2) . Project that point onto your model (let's say its X0Y100 Z 0.1 ) . Now join your first point X0Y-100 Z0 with two lines to points X0Y100Z0.2 and X0Y100Z0.1 . 

By looking from the RIGHT SIDE and measuring the angle between the two lines you will know the precise angle you have to rotate the part

DYNAMICALLY to align point 2.

5.Now project point 3 (X100 Y50 and lets say Z0.3) onto the surface of the part. Now by looking from the FRONT and drawing the triangle 

as described in the previous step you will have figured out the second rotation.

Gracjan

 

 

I understand this much better. Ill try this and figure it out soon! Thanks for taking time to re-explain it.

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On 4/9/2021 at 1:37 AM, CNC_Newbie said:

How would you do this?  Should I just measure the front and back of the part and create some boxes or lines to sit my part on in mastercam, or should I use an angle gauge on the fixture and try to use that measured angle to make the rotation? (Dynamic, is that the best way)

Often if the solid is "off" in a number of planes 3D transform will give a better result.

 

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Dynamic is just a means to carry out the two rotations.... You could ascertain the two angles graphically, but measuring the angles forces you to change Cplane so a rotation or a Dynamic move involes the same amount of work.

Gracjan 

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  • 4 weeks later...

Well I was slow the the party but I finally figured it out.  I was struggling with not being able to modify the Gnomon orientation of  Front Top so I would would use dynamic and set a new Gnomon to be position the way I wanted to match our machine setup and align it to the world..  This works fine as long as you have a part that is not angled and matches x & y or Z. 
 

Often times the solids we get are in space at a specific angle that represents how it would sit on a fixture or live in the real world.  If you start aligning the part to match the WCS and the world, it messes things up and you will not be able to make the cuts you want.

 

I struggled for weeks trying to wrap my head around this problem of planes and WCS with respect to how I need to set up X Y & Z to match our machine (X is front to back, Y is left to right, and Z is up and down) if standing in front out our a gantry head head mill/router)

 

I tried to ask for help here, and I felt stupid asking the same question over and over, but I just could not find an answer I could understand. The solution was so simple in the end. I knew it was something simple and If I could just show someone for 5 seconds it would of been a super quick answer. It seems that finding a person you can have a quick chat with about Mastercam  isnt a easy task as it often requires to to show someone whats going on in order reveal the problem and hopefully a solution. In my case I found the answer in a video where they were creating new planes.

 

I tried in vein to figure out a way to modify the gnomon (flip it around to match our machine) of the existing Top Front planes. Drumroll….. YOU CANNOT modify the existing planes. Tada…this was an instant lightbulb moment for me.

Armed with this  information, I saw him right click, duplicate the plane and BAM you can set up the Gnomon very similar  like you can in Dynamic (minus the clicking between  geometry and gnomon modes). Now I have a duplicate of top called Top-1 and I can set the gnomon to match our machine and never move part  with risk of changing the angle. I post my tool paths, and it actually works! Hallelujah!

 

I have been beating my head against a wall for quite some time now. I am so happy I figured this out. Its kind of embarrassing to keep asking the same question over and over, then to have very smart people try and explain things and offer solutions, but to still not understand,. 

 

I promise that once I am 100% dialed in and have a simple workflow, I will make some tutorials that hopefully help the dumbest among us like me understand how to use Mastercam. I can’t believe it took me this long to grasp this concept, Personally I think it might be easier to be able to double click on any Gnomon, modify it, assign it as WCS, T, C to match your machine setup. Maybe have Mastercam denote the planes Gnomon as being edited with an * or use the word edited, but allow you to manipulate the existing plane Gnomons and offer a right click “reset” or something. I know now that right click duplicate can achieve the same thing, but it too me a while to find that information and to end my frustration. 
 

Hope all is well with you folks, and I greatly appreciate everyone here and the help I have received, all of it has been invaluable, regardless if I fully understand.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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so much to take in... For now I'll just address your statement that you cannot modify the existing planes . All planes created by the user can be 

modified through the edit function in the RMB. If you are referring to the fact that the default 9 planes cannot be edited (Top , Front ....Trimetric) , that is true. I think it was around X5 a decision was made to chisel them into stone :) .

Gracjan

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1 hour ago, pullo said:

so much to take in... For now I'll just address your statement that you cannot modify the existing planes . All planes created by the user can be 

modified through the edit function in the RMB. If you are referring to the fact that the default 9 planes cannot be edited (Top , Front ....Trimetric) , that is true. I think it was around X5 a decision was made to chisel them into stone :) .

Gracjan

I remember if you had a value in the default planes things would get whacky down the line

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6 hours ago, pullo said:

so much to take in... For now I'll just address your statement that you cannot modify the existing planes . All planes created by the user can be 

modified through the edit function in the RMB. If you are referring to the fact that the default 9 planes cannot be edited (Top , Front ....Trimetric) , that is true. I think it was around X5 a decision was made to chisel them into stone :) .

Gracjan

Yes, I was speaking to the default planes. Maybe they are locked in and the  reference to which all else is mathematically calculated?   

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They were made uneditable because there could have been unintentional side effects , a thing I have never myself experienced.

I now read your answer in full and I seemed to have hit the crux  of it yesterday. 

Mastercam has no manual that comes with it , it was last seen in X5 , so you have to hunt the info down from the Help or on Youtube.

A full self education of Mastercam based on the written word would require reading this manual and then reading all the What's New PDFs X6-2022.

Gracjan

 

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This is a great opportunity to plug an actual training course.   Using Mastercam is much more akin to flying a plane than driving a car; getting into the air and safely back down is a lot harder than getting out of the driveway and onto the street.  The real problem is that when you're starting out, you don't know what you don't know, and you often don't even know enough to ask the question in the correct way.  

A proper class should address situations where the part is in random space and you have to align a WCS to it as a way to cover how planes & WCSes interact.  With my students, that's around week 6 or 7, once they're nice and comfortable and feeling like they understand some toolpathing and drawing basic widgets :) It's fun to watch the lightbulbs turn on.

The problem is that if you're self taught, you've stumbled across a lot of the basics so a lot of people tune out or stop doing the classes because the first few exercises are so easy, they think there won't be any value to the class.   They're generally taught in a specific way to build upon the basics and get progressively more useful in the real world.  Even I learn tips and tricks when I check out a basics class, and I've been doing this for a while now :)

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