Bob W.

UUUUGGHHH! I have to vent!! Mill turn...

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I’m a bit confused here….

Mastercam is a great product but the post is locked up. 
So you purchased Esprit, which has the flaws you mentioned, and may need an expert Esprit programmer to drive it. 
Only when something doesn’t post properly, you will find that Esprit posts are just as locked up as  Mastercam. 
If editable post are the concern, choose Partmaker. I can make a 13 axis, 3 channel control dance like Fred Astaire on meth. 

 

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2 thou drift on a fixed turret!

WoW.

I can understand thermals on a B holding a turning tool but turret?

LMAO @ Zoob and his comparisons!

IBTL 😁

 

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On 6/18/2021 at 6:55 PM, cncappsjames said:

9999x out of 10000x the AE's are right. But there's always a handful of folks that think they know better. Don't let your ego get in the way of sound advise.

James, you really were trying to troll me weren't you?  Not sure why.  I'd say ego had very little to do with my decision to stick with Mastercam and 9999/10000 AE's don't know xxxx about MY business or how it is run.  There are a lot of business decisions and variables that AEs don't have visibility into.  How many aerospace machine shops have you set up and run?  How many AS9100 quality systems have you set up?  How about ERP and MRP systems?  There is a lot more to the equation than programming a machine, there is setting up the entire quality process around that machine from PO receipt through inspection.  Your comment is a little short sighted and arrogant.  I rely heavily on advice from AEs but at the end of the day I'll make the call that is right for MY business and I could give two xxxxs if the AEs like it.  I listen to their advice, appreciate it immensly, but ultimately make my own decision based on how it fits with the big picture.

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On 6/19/2021 at 9:14 AM, Bob W. said:

Yep, where machine accuracy and stability are concerned.  The mill turn reminds me of a Haas, it is thermally unstable.  For the parts we are machining we are able to do two per day and over that time the lower turret X-axis drifts by 0.002".  We have charted it and we account for it but we shouldn't have to. 

I agree. You shouldn't have to. Warmup protocols with probing an artifact would be my advice.

 I have a 20 year old Okuma mill turn that has scales on the X and temp probes in the castings plus an algorithm that apparently works. Turning some A286 part for the Boeing crew capsule from a 70 degree morning to an afternoon in the 90s, shop tamp, I only made .0005" shift for insert wear towards that end of the day. It was just for giggles, with a +/-.001" tolerance. Tool holders are the most wonky design known to man and it still held pretty much perfectly.

Okuma has the thermal stuff figured out and I would never get anything else.

I bet that lower turret doesn't have a scale, which means you might get better, results with the head, assuming they didn't cheap out there too.

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^^^^my old 1990 Warner Swasey WSC6 i bought out of a college (hardly used but a bit abused) would hold 2 tenths without adjustment. Over night cool down etc and fire up in the morning no changes running barfeed too.

Only 2ax but a turret (not platten). Unbelievable. But it cost me $7k...

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Hi Bob,

I will try reach out to you and your reseller about this. 

I hope we can get to the bottom of it, and resolve the outstanding post issues.

 

Best Regards,

Gabriel Stein
Product Owner - Post and Machine Environments
CNC Software Inc

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3 hours ago, Gabriel Stein said:

Hi Bob,

I will try reach out to you and your reseller about this. 

I hope we can get to the bottom of it, and resolve the outstanding post issues.

 

Best Regards,

Gabriel Stein
Product Owner - Post and Machine Environments
CNC Software Inc

Thank you.  I believe Mastercam has a superior product to Esprit and it is a shame that AEs for the various manufacturers would be steering potential customers away due to post issues.  Being able to program a part in mill turn is nice but at the end of the day the code has to actually run the machine effectively or it is a broken product.  Mastercam mill-turn has been around for a while now and so have Mori NTX machines.  A lot of these basic issues should have been dialed in by now.

 

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9 hours ago, mkd said:

I bet that lower turret doesn't have a scale, which means you might get better, results with the head, assuming they didn't cheap out there too.

No, the machine has scales on X, Y, and Z for both the upper and lower turret.  The warmup program we run was written by the Mori AE and it includes a probing routine that probes a tooling ball fixed on the lower turret at the start and finish, and exports the measurements to a file via Dprint.  We run the probing routine numerous times throughout the day so we have reams of data over the last few months.  Up until seeing the data they refused to believe there was anything wrong.  The lower turret varies by 0.002" throughout the day but it does stabilize after about four hours.  I have said from day on (ok, maybe week 1) that it looks like a thermal issue.  I even disconnected the air dryer at the machine for a few days figuring it might be blowing cold air over the scales but it didn't make any difference.

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Quote

  Up until seeing the data they refused to believe there was anything wrong.  The lower turret varies by 0.002" throughout the day but it does stabilize after about four hours. 

Any chance there is an AC or heater vent blowing on or near the machine ??

or the sun heating up a nearby wall??

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40 minutes ago, Bob W. said:

No, the machine has scales on X, Y, and Z for both the upper and lower turret.  The warmup program we run was written by the Mori AE and it includes a probing routine that probes a tooling ball fixed on the lower turret at the start and finish, and exports the measurements to a file via Dprint.  We run the probing routine numerous times throughout the day so we have reams of data over the last few months.  Up until seeing the data they refused to believe there was anything wrong.  The lower turret varies by 0.002" throughout the day but it does stabilize after about four hours.  I have said from day on (ok, maybe week 1) that it looks like a thermal issue.  I even disconnected the air dryer at the machine for a few days figuring it might be blowing cold air over the scales but it didn't make any difference.

I stand corrected👍

Awesome support from the AE side, configuring that probing and whatnot.

 'Never' shutting off the machine and setting up a 4am automatic warmup cycle would be obvious idea, i'm sure you've thought about or tried.

 There are lots of manufactures out there that don't really do an exhaustive CPk analysis in regards to temperature. Some do a real good job algorithm based, without temp sensors.

 Sounds like you need to go back to the factory for a solution. Press your dealer to go up the food chain.

or buy an okuma:harhar: Trollololol

 

PS: your experience level running production on a this high end machine is on a whole other level beyond my experience, so not much help from me. Hard to imagine the Mori is even using the scale data whatsoever, being that far off. I bet you could get with the AE and track this scale data along with what you are already recording. It might show something once graphed? Rhetorically, if there is 3 feet of cast iron between the scale the cutter, what Delta-T would you need to get .002 growth?

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46 minutes ago, Bob W. said:

No, the machine has scales on X, Y, and Z for both the upper and lower turret.  The warmup program we run was written by the Mori AE and it includes a probing routine that probes a tooling ball fixed on the lower turret at the start and finish, and exports the measurements to a file via Dprint.  We run the probing routine numerous times throughout the day so we have reams of data over the last few months.  Up until seeing the data they refused to believe there was anything wrong.  The lower turret varies by 0.002" throughout the day but it does stabilize after about four hours.  I have said from day on (ok, maybe week 1) that it looks like a thermal issue.  I even disconnected the air dryer at the machine for a few days figuring it might be blowing cold air over the scales but it didn't make any difference.

We have a NTX2000 and see the same issues. We also have a NT3200 sitting right beside the NTX and that machine is way more stable. DMG/Mori refuses to admit that the NTX just aren't as stable as the NT...but when you have 2 machines sitting side by side it's obvious that something is up.

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11 minutes ago, MIL-TFP-41 said:

We have a NTX2000 and see the same issues. We also have a NT3200 sitting right beside the NTX and that machine is way more stable. DMG/Mori refuses to admit that the NTX just aren't as stable as the NT...but when you have 2 machines sitting side by side it's obvious that something is up.

BOOM!

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On 6/19/2021 at 11:54 AM, Zoober said:

I’m a bit confused here….

Mastercam is a great product but the post is locked up. 
So you purchased Esprit, which has the flaws you mentioned, and may need an expert Esprit programmer to drive it. 
Only when something doesn’t post properly, you will find that Esprit posts are just as locked up as  Mastercam. 
If editable post are the concern, choose Partmaker. I can make a 13 axis, 3 channel control dance like Fred Astaire on meth. 

From what I've heard, Partmaker is the cat's pajamas for Swiss and mill-turn.  But weren't they bought by Autodesk?  If so that's a death knell.

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We bought a Mori NT6600 from a sister company a couple of years ago.

It was purchased new in 2008 and heavily modified for a specific job and had less than 200 hours on it when it arrived

It took over a year to get it rebuilt to stock condition. It does not have a lower turret and the B is not full 5 axis

Mastercam Mill/Turn was not available for this machine

I bought a Postability post and  I was told  machine sim was not available.

We got it dialed in pretty quickly and are posting edit free code..

Programming a machine like this without Machine sim is pretty scary.

We did buy a Vericut machine for it, but that is not dialed in yet.

I have not done enough with this machine yet to know if it has thermal issues or not

 

 

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Bob - donkey question....the 2 thou drift on X.... are the machine parameters set correctly? Is the machine actually using the scale for the X?

Or just the ballscrew + encoder.....???

2 thou on a foot long travel with a scale is monstrous...

 

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4 hours ago, MIL-TFP-41 said:

We have a NTX2000 and see the same issues. We also have a NT3200 sitting right beside the NTX and that machine is way more stable. DMG/Mori refuses to admit that the NTX just aren't as stable as the NT...but when you have 2 machines sitting side by side it's obvious that something is up.

Hmmmmmm......

Capture.JPG

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1 hour ago, Newbeeee™ said:

Bob - donkey question....the 2 thou drift on X.... are the machine parameters set correctly? Is the machine actually using the scale for the X?

Or just the ballscrew + encoder.....???

2 thou on a foot long travel with a scale is monstrous...

 

That is one of the first things I asked so I would say yes but I haven't personally confirmed it.  They already had someone up for from LA for about a week running tests shortly after the machine was installed.  When the AE (whom are right 99.99% of the time 🙄) came out they had to reset the grid shift three times because things were off and we caught it when setting up the Vericut models.  My complaint to Mori was either the AEs were incompetent or there was something going on with the machine.  This was before cutting one part.  Even without really running the machine there is growth throughout the day so long as it is powered on.

6 hours ago, gcode said:

Any chance there is an AC or heater vent blowing on or near the machine ??

or the sun heating up a nearby wall??

No, and no.  The machine is toward the center of the shop with a 26' ceiling and other than maybe putting in a few Big A$$ Fans the shop is a '10' from an environment standpoint.  It also sits on a 2' thick slab with multiple levels of rebar. The shop and inspection departments sit at 70F 24/7.

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You shouldn't have to grid shift it unless you smash it.

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14 minutes ago, Leon82 said:

You shouldn't have to grid shift it unless you smash it.

Right, this was the grid shift done at the initial machine install/ setup.  Everything was done and dialed then the C-axis bore position was off by ~0.002" the next day.  That happened a few times over a few days...  Given that AEs are right 99.99% of the time I figured it was most likely a machine issue.

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I must've touched a nerve Bob. Clearly more than an element of truth to what I said.

You COMPLETELY took what I said out of context and are coming in from the top ropes.

 

if I were trolling you Bob, I would have been much more creative with it and probably added a ;) or :p So, on that note... have a nice day. 

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1 hour ago, cncappsjames said:

I must've touched a nerve Bob. Clearly more than an element of truth to what I said.

You COMPLETELY took what I said out of context and are coming in from the top ropes.

 

if I were trolling you Bob, I would have been much more creative with it and probably added a ;) or :p So, on that note... have a nice day. 

I figured as much and was having a good time with it👍  Read the comment a few times and you might see where it can be taken that way though.  In any case I would agree that YOU are probably right 99.99% of the time but I still wouldn't do everything you told me to do, cuz I'm kind of a rebel that way.  I don't think most AEs are that right though.  :respect:🍺

Your post made me smile 😁  Did I get your goat a little bit?  Its all good.

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When speaking of AE's, wasn't necessarily speaking of methods and whatnot, I was speaking more in terms of the under the hood  machine stuff... ladder, PMC, options, etc....

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Bob

If the machine from just sitting powered shifts 2 thou centreline of spindle bore, it has a HUGE fundamemtal instability problem.

What is your tailstock/sub spindle like? Does the machine turn parallel day to day?

...and i would look through the books and confirm the parameter numbers and check for my own sanity...

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This may not be relevant but I'll offer it up...

On our newer Mazaks, we have experienced a similar growth issue.....after much back & forth we found it was the thermal compensation....it was set too high and was causing corrections that were causing problems.

Don't know if something like that might be happening

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18 hours ago, Matthew Hajicek - Conventus said:

From what I've heard, Partmaker is the cat's pajamas for Swiss and mill-turn.  But weren't they bought by Autodesk?  If so that's a death knell.

Yes. AD bought them. And so far, after the limbo year, the support has been better than Delcam. 

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