Bob W.

UUUUGGHHH! I have to vent!! Mill turn...

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On the topic of AE's, not all are created equal.

Couple of examples of what I have dealt with from DMG/Mori AE's....

This was setting up a NH5000....

Them: Ok you have the Rotary table fixture offset option (G54.2) now. (Mori installed, not Fanuc)

Me: did you set the parameters for it?

Them: ????

Fortunately I had set up this option on a horizontal before & knew which parameters needed to be set.

 

This was setting up a NHX4000 a few years later....

Dynamic offsets (G54.2)? I have never heard of that. Why do you need those? You are the only ones I have ever heard of using them

Tapping in G95 (IPR)? Why would you want to do that? You are the only shop I ever heard of that does that.

 

And, apparently this is not just the AE's in my area. The NH5000 story was repeated by someone in the Bay area. I was able to help them, not DMG/Mori.

 

To their credit, their service side is very, very good, for us anyways. I have heard stories from other territories tho.

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4 hours ago, JParis said:

This may not be relevant but I'll offer it up...

On our newer Mazaks, we have experienced a similar growth issue.....after much back & forth we found it was the thermal compensation....it was set too high and was causing corrections that were causing problems.

Don't know if something like that might be happening

...and I guess that the placement of said sensors, and how they're actually bonded to the iron, makes a HUGE difference too?

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Remember the Mars probe that vanished as it fired it's rockets to go into orbit around Mars about 25 years ago

After much investigation, the cause was discovered.

It had a metric navigation system, and the NASA engineer who wrote the orbital entry program

delivered  the code in English. They found the wreckage 20 years later a couple of thousand miles off course.

Maybe something similar is going on here.

Sensors that read Fahrenheit and parameters set in Centigrade would account for the large amount of thermal

comp happening here.

 

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On the topic of inch/metric stuff. A few years back I identified a bug on a FANUC 31i-A5 series control.

When writing to WSEC (G54.4) offset table using G10 method, if you were in metric mode, all was good. If you were in imperial units mode it moved the decimal on the linear error corrections. That took some time to figure out. Then when I brought it to my FANUC contact's attention he was equally as puzzled. FANUC had a fix in relatively short order (for them).

Agreed, not all AE's are created equal. I'll go back to my dungeon now and sulk about my peers that aren't up to snuff. :rofl:

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1 hour ago, gcode said:

Remember the Mars probe that vanished as it fired it's rockets to go into orbit around Mars about 25 years ago

After much investigation, the cause was discovered.

It had a metric navigation system, and the NASA engineer who wrote the orbital entry program

delivered  the code in English. They found the wreckage 20 years later a couple of thousand miles off course.

Maybe something similar is going on here.

Sensors that read Fahrenheit and parameters set in Centigrade would account for the large amount of thermal

comp happening here.

 

777 had something similar...first fully CAD aircraft and the wire looms for the tail were outsourced to Germany (who worked in metric).

When they were delivered for the first (5?) builds, they were many feet short (and not very stretchy 😁).

Metric. Inch. I dunno the prob. It's just a 24.5 conversion....

🤡

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18 minutes ago, Newbeeee™ said:

777 had something similar...first fully CAD aircraft and the wire looms for the tail were outsourced to Germany (who worked in metric).

When they were delivered for the first (5?) builds, they were many feet short (and not very stretchy 😁).

Metric. Inch. I dunno the prob. It's just a 24.5 conversion....

🤡

but if you don't do the conversion you get a very big error

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I just got off a conference call with my dealer (McamNW) and CNC Software and I feel like it was very productive.  Kudos to CNC for taking the time and including me in the meeting, thank you for organizing that Gabriel.  One of the items brought up was how to improve the shakedown process and make sure the setting in Mastercam match the parameters on the machine.  Since these machines are so configurable there is a lot of opportunity for configuration differences between the .machine environment and the machine's parameters.  Possible remedies brought up were a pre-programmed diagnostic part that tests a variety of the machine functions and another is having someone on site for a day to get things ironed out and matching.  Given the value of these machines' time it would be easy to justify any additional expense if there is one.

In any case, Esprit seemed to run out of the box but I also had a programming expert on site who was also very fluent in running the NT/ NTX series machine so if there was a snag it was fixed immediately whether it originated from the code or a machine parameter issue.  Based on what I saw, which admittedly in limited, I feel that Mastercam has a much better product and once running I will be more productive than I ever would have been with Esprit.  Of course I am biased though.

Overall I am encouraged and I really hope the changes and fixes make it into the base post so these issues are a thing of the past.

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Thanks for joining the call with us and though I'm not involved on the post end of things, you're in good hands with Gabriel. Having someone that can connect all the dots on-site if there's an issue can certainly cut days or weeks out of a troubleshooting process- it's been a tough shift performing this role almost totally remotely since the beginning of COVID.

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55 minutes ago, Bob W. said:

I just got off a conference call with my dealer (McamNW) and CNC Software and I feel like it was very productive.  Kudos to CNC for taking the time and including me in the meeting, thank you for organizing that Gabriel.  One of the items brought up was how to improve the shakedown process and make sure the setting in Mastercam match the parameters on the machine.  Since these machines are so configurable there is a lot of opportunity for configuration differences between the .machine environment and the machine's parameters.  Possible remedies brought up were a pre-programmed diagnostic part that tests a variety of the machine functions and another is having someone on site for a day to get things ironed out and matching.  Given the value of these machines' time it would be easy to justify any additional expense if there is one.

In any case, Esprit seemed to run out of the box but I also had a programming expert on site who was also very fluent in running the NT/ NTX series machine so if there was a snag it was fixed immediately whether it originated from the code or a machine parameter issue.  Based on what I saw, which admittedly in limited, I feel that Mastercam has a much better product and once running I will be more productive than I ever would have been with Esprit.  Of course I am biased though.

Overall I am encouraged and I really hope the changes and fixes make it into the base post so these issues are a thing of the past.

Something I would like to see implemented would be "Parameter Checks" in the NC Code.

The Fanuc 31i-B5 Control has the ability to "read Machine Parameter Values", and throw an alarm if the value is not set correctly. I first saw the "PRM" read functionality inside a Blum Probing Subroutine, and have since started implementing code such as:

#33=PRM[5006, 6]
IF [#33 EQ 0] GOTO 5066
(NOTE: depending on parameters, could use "50066")
.
.
.
(Machining Program Continues)
.
.
.
M30

(Could be "N50066", depending on Max. N-Block settings.)
N5066 (Jump for #5006.6 Error Trap)
#3006 = 166(PRM #5006.6=0; S/B "1")
%

 

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Colin - sweet call but would that not be better as an initial "set up" program?

Surely the "important" machine parameters (specific model or machine series) can be decided upon (ie the functioning ones to check and not ones such as how pressing reset is configured etc) between the MTB and CNC, then a "master" set of those parameters can be run when installing Mastercam MTM?

So there's a master post (Mcam) and master parameters (MTB) that are supplied together?

I guess it's just an automation way of what James does when he goes into a company and configures the MAMs - but CNC will obviously always be on the backfoot if the machine is not configured as they expect.

Same as Bob is on the backfoot because the post isn't outputting MCodes where the machine needs them...

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I really like that idea Colin,

Most of our IKE posts are setup to support multiple common parameter settings. We also try and list as many as we can at the top of the .pst file to show off our recommended settings, and show off what switches apply to each settings.

I am thinking this could be useful as a standalone program to read and output each parameter we care about instead of asking people to read them off the controller. Might make it a bit easier to make sure the parameters on the machine match the switches in the post and could catch those issues early.

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The challenging part of the current system is the people setting up the machine in Mastercam don't typically talk to the AEs doing the actual machine setup on site.  I know there is collaboration between CNC Software and DMG-Mori but not at the individual shop level so they don't have visibility into how my specific machine/ parameter is set up.  If I had a decade of running these machines like I do for my Makino mills it would be a non-issue because I know exactly what I want and exactly where to look when something doesn't work.  With this new mill-turn I had zero experience.  Being in the middle between Mastercam and the AEs is tough because I don't even know the questions to ask or what parameters might be causing issues.  I just know it isn't working and I need to somehow produce parts.  This is on top of some of the syntax simply being faulty.  I think a lot could be eliminated with a troubleshooting program but that does present some challenges of its own.

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41 minutes ago, Newbeeee™ said:

Colin - sweet call but would that not be better as an initial "set up" program?

Surely the "important" machine parameters (specific model or machine series) can be decided upon (ie the functioning ones to check and not ones such as how pressing reset is configured etc) between the MTB and CNC, then a "master" set of those parameters can be run when installing Mastercam MTM?

So there's a master post (Mcam) and master parameters (MTB) that are supplied together?

I guess it's just an automation way of what James does when he goes into a company and configures the MAMs - but CNC will obviously always be on the backfoot if the machine is not configured as they expect.

Same as Bob is on the backfoot because the post isn't outputting MCodes where the machine needs them...

I do think many of these checks would be useful in a "Setup Program". This could be done "once" during Post prove-out, with the caveat that if someone were to make an "on-the-fly" parameter change, then all bets are off. I suppose you could always run the the "parameter setup program"  after a crash, and it would at least point you in the right direction, but the point to me would be to avoid these errors in the first place.

I suppose you could always make a "parameter checking subprogram" (O1234 > for example), and then just call that Subroutine with "M98 P1234", at the start of every file. That way, if your "parameter checks" needed tweaking, you could go to a single place to add or delete an "IF" statement.

33 minutes ago, Alex Dales said:

I really like that idea Colin,

Most of our IKE posts are setup to support multiple common parameter settings. We also try and list as many as we can at the top of the .pst file to show off our recommended settings, and show off what switches apply to each settings.

I am thinking this could be useful as a standalone program to read and output each parameter we care about instead of asking people to read them off the controller. Might make it a bit easier to make sure the parameters on the machine match the switches in the post and could catch those issues early.

It would certainly be possible to create a "Parameter Dump" Program, where you could read each of the Machine Parameter Values, then output the "local variables" using the RS-232 output. That way, you could just send your customer a NC Code program, tell them to turn on the Parameters which allow DPRNT statements, and they would then be able to generate a Text File, which would then give you "just the parameter settings you care about". Much easier than having the customer do a "ALL I/O" dump, and having to sift through reams of data to find the needle in the haystack...

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There are a few makes and machine models that apply to what we're talking here, so it would need a regimented approach to dealing with each machine type (or model) "master configuration".

But I've had VMCs delivered  at the same time - same make model and near sequential serial numbers which have had many parameter differences.

And i remember my old reseller (Hi Phil if you're reading) and him telling me of a couple of Integrex years ago. Customer received first machine and post issued. 

Customer receives machine #2 and spindle (c) is opposite to machine #1. Rather than change machine parameter, customer requests a new post which is issued so each machine now has an individual post and certain jobs can only be run on #1 and certain others on #2.

What a ridiculous situation. But could be avoided with a "master configuration".

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25 minutes ago, Bob W. said:

The challenging part of the current system is the people setting up the machine in Mastercam don't typically talk to the AEs doing the actual machine setup on site.  I know there is collaboration between CNC Software and DMG-Mori but not at the individual shop level so they don't have visibility into how my specific machine/ parameter is set up.  If I had a decade of running these machines like I do for my Makino mills it would be a non-issue because I know exactly what I want and exactly where to look when something doesn't work.  With this new mill-turn I had zero experience.  Being in the middle between Mastercam and the AEs is tough because I don't even know the questions to ask or what parameters might be causing issues.  I just know it isn't working and I need to somehow produce parts.  This is on top of some of the syntax simply being faulty.  I think a lot could be eliminated with a troubleshooting program but that does present some challenges of its own.

This is very well said Bob.

I used to run into issues with posts and the shop owner would be beating me up because he would want to know why we didn't have a post for a very common machine.  Then I would have to explain about the machine parameter issue.  I have seen sequentially serial numbered machines with different parameters and options turned on, even though they were supposed to be identical. 

Then there is the knowledge and training of the Machinist/operator.   If they have never run a Siemens control before and have had a FULL day of training,  They can't tell me what the code is supposed to look like.  I don't know all of the nuances of all of the different controls even though I have many years of hands on experience. 

 

It can be a very frustrating experience.  I feel your pain.

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1 minute ago, Bill Craven said:

I have seen sequentially serial numbered machines with different parameters and options turned on, even though they were supposed to be identical. 

 

3 minutes ago, Newbeeee™ said:

But I've had VMCs delivered  at the same time - same make model and near sequential serial numbers which have had many parameter differences.

And yet they still call me to yell about the post being broken!

Its OK we're used to being the punching bag :)

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1 minute ago, Alex Dales said:

 

And yet they still call me to yell about the post being broken!

Its OK we're used to being the punching bag :)

Don't worry, I dish out an equal helping to DMG-Mori 😁.  Gotta maintain balance.

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1 minute ago, Bob W. said:

Don't worry, I dish out an equal helping to DMG-Mori 😁.  Gotta maintain balance.

YUP The Squeaky Lead Screw Gets The Grease !

Some Times

:construction:

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That's because when they build them they spin the parameter wheel and whatever it lands on is what they load into the machine.

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48 minutes ago, Leon82 said:

That's because when they build them they spin the parameter wheel and whatever it lands on is what they load into the machine.

There is some of this; yes absolutely. Many configurations come down to the personal preferences of the person who is tasked with commissioning the machine.

However; it can also depend heavily on how the machine was built and configured. What vintage is the Control? How was the machine optioned?

One thing we do at Methods is to bring in each and every model of the machines we sell, and test the machine performance. During this testing, we run sample NC code output from CAMplete. This allows us to ensure that "with a given parameter list", our machines will run CAMplete code out-of-the-box, on all our 5-Axis machines, and our Nakamura-Tome Mill-Turn machines.

That said, we do sell many machine options that would affect the work zone of the machine, so there is often customization of the CAMplete machine in these cases. But having these "parameter and NC Code baselines" is extremely useful when trying to identify a problem. We do still occasionally run into issues, but we also have a dedicated company that supports our CAMplete development. 

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9 minutes ago, Colin Gilchrist said:

There is some of this; yes absolutely. Many configurations come down to the personal preferences of the person who is tasked with commissioning the machine.

However; it can also depend heavily on how the machine was built and configured. What vintage is the Control? How was the machine optioned?

One thing we do at Methods is to bring in each and every model of the machines we sell, and test the machine performance. During this testing, we run sample NC code output from CAMplete. This allows us to ensure that "with a given parameter list", our machines will run CAMplete code out-of-the-box, on all our 5-Axis machines, and our Nakamura-Tome Mill-Turn machines.

That said, we do sell many machine options that would affect the work zone of the machine, so there is often customization of the CAMplete machine in these cases. But having these "parameter and NC Code baselines" is extremely useful when trying to identify a problem. We do still occasionally run into issues, but we also have a dedicated company that supports our CAMplete development. 

One thing I found in Camplete is you could put all the macro variables or parameters I can't remember which one for each machine control in there. You have to hold the shift key when you edit the machine and there will be a tab for variables. So I believe you truly can have your Camplete program check machine variables as long as you track the machine serial numbers in your machine database.

 

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2 hours ago, Leon82 said:

One thing I found in Camplete is you could put all the macro variables or parameters I can't remember which one for each machine control in there. You have to hold the shift key when you edit the machine and there will be a tab for variables. So I believe you truly can have your Camplete program check machine variables as long as you track the machine serial numbers in your machine database.

 

The thing about CAMplete, is it perform G-code emulation. So you can certainly set variable values, and also have the NC Format output "set variables", for example to initialize a counter variable. However, I can also do things like "hand-edit" the G-code, and the control emulator will recognize and simulate those hand-edits.

I'm excited to see what Moduleworks is bringing to the table for Machine Simulation in the next few years, and hopefully they will start adding similar functionality to what exists in CAMplete and Vericut.

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11 hours ago, cncappsjames said:

Agreed, not all AE's are created equal. I'll go back to my dungeon now and sulk about my peers that aren't up to snuff. :rofl:

Nothing personal it's a FANUC thing:harhar:

 

 

Heidenhain has never had a inch/metric issue.

ever🤭

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5 hours ago, Colin Gilchrist said:

 Nakamura-Tome Mill-Turn machines.

 

...Speaking of thermal drift....:whistle:

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5 hours ago, mkd said:

...Speaking of thermal drift....:whistle:

The AS machines are rock stable. But they're CY....

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