Multiaxis Pocketing Containment

[Shiva.aero]

I am trying to rough an Impeller using Multiaxis Pocketing operation. I am using this tool instead of Blade expert, to get  Dynamic tool path.

If I don't use containment, then tool path is created for the complete impeller. I want to rough only one channel and then I want to use transform operation.

Now the blades are highly twisted. Using a 2D boundary covers extra zone at some places and leaves cutting zone at some other places, since the blades are twisted.

So, how can I contain the Multiaxis Pocketing tool path between the blades?

Version used: Mastercam 2022

Thank you.

[Chally72]

Are you using stock? Multiaxis pocketing is very aggressive in that if there is stock beyond the drive geometry, it will still go after it. For impellers/blade/hubs, what I usually do is create a stock "plug" that represents the stock of one channel. If you make it a solid plug, you can use the model prep push/pull tools to adjust entry and exit trims as well. Focusing Multiaxis pocketing using stock is the only way to go when you have complex profiles that no longer lend themselves to projected 2D boundaries.

[Chally72]

Here's a simple example where in this process, a cutter was sent down the center of each channel in an initial slotting op, and then we create a local stock plug that represents the stock left around each blade that we then target for a multiaxis Pocketing op to efficiently rough out:

[Shiva.aero]

Thank you Chally!

Yes, I am using the full stock! That's really a good idea, instead of using containment boundary

Here I like to ask some more related questions:

1. I observed that there is no tool axis control for roughing strategy in Multiaxis Pocketing! Is there any indirect way (like the idea which you gave for containment) to limit the tool axis ? (Many times when I tried to program Blisk with Esprit CAM program, I end up with exceeding my B axis table limit)

2. My reseller (Mastercam India) told to use Multiaxis Morph toolpath (which have tool axis control), instead of Multiaxis Pocketing toolpath, to get toolpath similar to dynamic roughing by opting tool path direction from blade to blade. Is it really a good alternative?

3. (Not related to the Multiaxis Pocketing) Just wondering, in your example mentioned above, how does the center slotting helps when you use Multiaxis dynamic toolpath? 

Thank you.

[Chally72]

1 hour ago, Shiva.aero said:

Thank you Chally!

Yes, I am using the full stock! That's really a good idea, instead of using containment boundary

Here I like to ask some more related questions:

1. I observed that there is no tool axis control for roughing strategy in Multiaxis Pocketing! Is there any indirect way (like the idea which you gave for containment) to limit the tool axis ? (Many times when I tried to program Blisk with Esprit CAM program, I end up with exceeding my B axis table limit)

2. My reseller (Mastercam India) told to use Multiaxis Morph toolpath (which have tool axis control), instead of Multiaxis Pocketing toolpath, to get toolpath similar to dynamic roughing by opting tool path direction from blade to blade. Is it really a good alternative?

3. (Not related to the Multiaxis Pocketing) Just wondering, in your example mentioned above, how does the center slotting helps when you use Multiaxis dynamic toolpath? 

Thank you.

Hi Shiva,

1. Pocketing is pretty unique in that the tool axis control at every point of the path is entirely driven off of the floor surface you select. The tool will always point in the normal direction of the floor, so changing the floor is your handle for affecting tool pointing and establishing tilt limits.

 

That's all well and good, you're probably thinking, but then you immediately run into the next problem- how do I change my floor shape but also cut my floor? One common way to use Multiaxis Pocketing is to draw a false floor below the geometry you're cutting that gives you the tool axis pointing you want, and then simply add the actual floor as part of the Part Surfaces selection that the toolpath will avoid. Here's an example where I want to rough a large amount of material at once from the pockets on the sides of this part, but I also don't just want to point the tool based on the floor surfaces and end up with essentially just motion around a big cylinder:

So how did I get the toolpath that is displayed? I drew my own floor inside of the part, that has a gentle kick upwards at each end:

Using this false floor, I am controlling the tool vector explicitly along the entire path, but still cutting against all of the actual part geometry; the false floor ends up only being used to point the tool. Here's the floor inside of the part geometry:

You'll note that when the toolpath goes beyond the extents of the floor surface I've drawn, it just acts as if we've drawn a tangential straight extension onto the floor, and maintains that tool vector out to wherever the path goes to.

 

2. Morph is a little easier to understand, troubleshoot, and modify because of the options you have within the path to change the motion, but it can't ever be as efficient at roughing material as Multiaxis Pocketing. Things like the Morph Pocket option inside of the Roughing tab will get us closer to constant cutter engagement, "dynamic-style" motion, but still not close to what Pocketing will do. There are situations when I use one or the other, and there are definitely situations where it is just too difficult to produce a good Pocketing path because of crazy part geometry or machine/fixture constraints, and I need to go to a morph or parallel to get the power and explicit control I need to produce a usable toolpath.

3. In this example, the company wanted to make a video showing off the cutter doing full slotting before tackling the blades. For a production program, I'd probably be using Pocketing to dynamic cut the entire channel

[Shiva.aero]

Excellent! Thank you very much Chally!

1. Does it work when the walls are twisted and comes in the way of normal direction to the false floor?

2. In the case of Esprit CAM, the tool axis orientation is controlled by v-direction flow line of the walls and so I used to create false walls with required v-direction flow line by modifying the edges! Is there any such influence of walls in Mastercam, in controlling the tool orientation?

Thank you again!

[Shiva.aero]

I attempted this technique on a blisk and here are some of my observations:

1. Able to control tool orientation by using false floor and the tool orientation get adjusted to avoid collision with the twisted walls.

2. Plug stock method worked fine without requiring any containment boundary, but it is using the gap between the adjacent blades for links! (since there is no stock between other blades)

3. The hub surface for the Blisk I used is a truncated cone surface and I used a cylindrical surface as a false floor. The toolpath follows the false floor and so lot of stock is left over the hub/floor surface. In Esprit CAM there is "project toolpath down" option in the Multiaxis roughing technique (called as 5 axis channel roughing), which gives a clean and uniform remaining stock on the non-planar floor. Without such option I think it's difficult get a clean floor in Mastercam. Please let me know if there is any other way to get a uniform floor.

Thank you!

[#Rekd™]

There is an Impeller file in this thread that Ron helped me with. 

 

[Chally72]

12 minutes ago, Shiva.aero said:

I attempted this technique on a blisk and here are some of my observations:

1. Able to control tool orientation by using false floor and the tool orientation get adjusted to avoid collision with the twisted walls.

2. Plug stock method worked fine without requiring any containment boundary, but it is using the gap between the adjacent blades for links! (since there is no stock between other blades)

3. The hub surface for the Blisk I used is a truncated cone surface and I used a cylindrical surface as a false floor. The toolpath follows the false floor and so lot of stock is left over the hub/floor surface. In Esprit CAM there is "project toolpath down" option in the Multiaxis roughing technique (called as 5 axis channel roughing), which gives a clean and uniform remaining stock on the non-planar floor. Without such option I think it's difficult get a clean floor in Mastercam. Please let me know if there is any other way to get a uniform floor.

Thank you!

Can you post your file? I can take a look and make some suggestions.

[Shiva.aero]

I like to share but I don't have the permission. I will try to model it in my home version but I need some time for that.

In the mean time, just I like to add some more detail:

It is a jet engine blisk with a inclined floor (truncated cone surface). To machine the blades, the table has to position itself with B axis 90 degree (in a table-table 5 axis machine) and if the floor/hub is inclined, then the table tilts further to keep the tool perpendicular to the floor. When this happens, the tool path exceeds the B axis limit, which is +95 degree in my case. To avoid this axis limitation problem, I used your false floor strategy and it worked fine except leaving a conical stock at the floor (since the false floor is cylindrical but the actual floor is conical).

Thank you!

 

[crazy^millman]

9 minutes ago, Shiva.aero said:

I like to share but I don't have the permission. I will try to model it in my home version but I need some time for that.

In the mean time, just I like to add some more detail:

It is a jet engine blisk with a inclined floor (truncated cone surface). To machine the blades, the table has to position itself with B axis 90 degree (in a table-table 5 axis machine) and if the floor/hub is inclined, then the table tilts further to keep the tool perpendicular to the floor. When this happens, the tool path exceeds the B axis limit, which is +95 degree in my case. To avoid this axis limitation problem, I used your false floor strategy and it worked fine except leaving a conical stock at the floor (since the false floor is cylindrical but the actual floor is conical).

Thank you!

 

That is where you need to get away from traditional tools and look to the barrel style tools for doing that area. Gives you more angle on the tool, but still provide what is needed to finish that area correctly. Seen this to many times the wrong machine for the part and the programmer is stuck trying to make a 500lb gorilla fit in a 5lb cage.

[Shiva.aero]

23 hours ago, crazy^millman said:

That is where you need to get away from traditional tools and look to the barrel style tools for doing that area. Gives you more angle on the tool, but still provide what is needed to finish that area correctly. Seen this to many times the wrong machine for the part and the programmer is stuck trying to make a 500lb gorilla fit in a 5lb cage.

Barrel tools allows us to use higher stepover and thereby reduces finishing time, but it doesn't give advantage in tool approach/orientation.

The axis limit problem occurs, because by default the CAM softwares tries to keep the tool normal to the surface. If there is no option to limit axis in the CAM software, then it is difficult to avoid this problem, especially in Blisk machining, because the machining starts from table tilt with 90 degree. For example, in machining the inclined floor of blisk, it should be possible by limiting B axis to 90 degree, instead of allowing it to tilt further from 90 degree to keep the tool normal. This is a clear software limitation, since I have programmed the same part for the same machine using an another CAM software.

But most CAM software does not allow direct axis control with the Multiaxis roughing strategy and it is indirectly controlled by Wall flow lines or Floor normals.

[crazy^millman]

1 hour ago, Shiva.aero said:

Barrel tools allows us to use higher stepover and thereby reduces finishing time, but it doesn't give advantage in tool approach/orientation.

There are many different types of barrel tools don't limit your idea to just the standard Radial ones. There are end shape ones that allow exactly what you say isn't possible.

Emuge Taper Form Barrel Tool

Fraisa Arcut-x Spherical and Toric Cutters

 

[Chally72]

It's true that there aren't many controls if you want to limit machine angle, but it's important to point out that this path is forced to calculate against the floor vectors to ensure that we make safe dynamic style toolpath for all circumstances- IE, we don't introduce tilt that would overengage the cutter and blow up a tool. 

 

HOWEVER, because this is Mastercam we're talking about, we still have options here! Attached is a program where we've got a pocketing path on an undulating surface, and perhaps we want to get more specific with the motion.

 

Case #1: We want to restrict the rotary angles so that the path will stay within our machine limits. Check out Path #3- I can use a Convert 3 to 5 axis toolpath even on other multiaxis paths like Pocketing. So here, I take the Pocketing toolpath, turn on Limits in Tool axis control, and limit my tilt motion to a 10 degree cone.  Now I keep my dynamic-style motion and restrict it to my tilt needs. Note that this might overengage the tool in certain areas here, but if you're multiaxis roughing you're probably OK accepting some compromises such as this and you've got a conservative stepover to begin with.

 

Case #2: We want to project or drop the roughing motion onto our true surface- the flat draft face underneath my "wave" surface that I toolpathed with the Op #2 Pocket. This is Op #4, for reference. So, once again, I'll use a 3 to 5 conversion path, and this time I'll use a little trick in Collision control. I'll set strategy #1 to Retract tool along tool axis:

I'll set my Check surface as that drafted underside surface I actually want to cut down to. Next, I'll go into the advanced subpage for Strategy #1 that opened up when I made my strategy selection, and turn on Drop Tool. What this will do is project the toolpath DOWN along the vector of the tool until it comes in contact with the Check surface I set- which in this case is the final surface I actually want to cut.

 

The end result is that I get the tool pointing/roughing motion created by path #2, but projected to the lower surface.

 

I could combine these case methods and do both a projection and a restriction of tool angle, or add collision tilt away like a normal Morph/Parallel to avoid clamps/etc. The idea here is that while multiaxis Pocketing might not be able to give you exactly what you want due to the restrictions it calculates with, you can always take that motion as a starting point and modify it to suit your needs through a 3to5 conversion path. Hope this helps!

Dropped Pocketing Example.mcam

[Aaron Eberhard]

Y'all are doing great, I just want to add that it's even simpler to do that dropping conversion with 3-to-5 if you're trying to drop in a linear axis.

Switch the strategy from Convert to Dropping, and you'll see different cut pattern options:

[Shiva.aero]

On 7/1/2021 at 9:27 PM, Chally72 said:

It's true that there aren't many controls if you want to limit machine angle, but it's important to point out that this path is forced to calculate against the floor vectors to ensure that we make safe dynamic style toolpath for all circumstances- IE, we don't introduce tilt that would overengage the cutter and blow up a tool. 

 

HOWEVER, because this is Mastercam we're talking about, we still have options here! Attached is a program where we've got a pocketing path on an undulating surface, and perhaps we want to get more specific with the motion.

 

Case #1: We want to restrict the rotary angles so that the path will stay within our machine limits. Check out Path #3- I can use a Convert 3 to 5 axis toolpath even on other multiaxis paths like Pocketing. So here, I take the Pocketing toolpath, turn on Limits in Tool axis control, and limit my tilt motion to a 10 degree cone.  Now I keep my dynamic-style motion and restrict it to my tilt needs. Note that this might overengage the tool in certain areas here, but if you're multiaxis roughing you're probably OK accepting some compromises such as this and you've got a conservative stepover to begin with.

 

Case #2: We want to project or drop the roughing motion onto our true surface- the flat draft face underneath my "wave" surface that I toolpathed with the Op #2 Pocket. This is Op #4, for reference. So, once again, I'll use a 3 to 5 conversion path, and this time I'll use a little trick in Collision control. I'll set strategy #1 to Retract tool along tool axis:

I'll set my Check surface as that drafted underside surface I actually want to cut down to. Next, I'll go into the advanced subpage for Strategy #1 that opened up when I made my strategy selection, and turn on Drop Tool. What this will do is project the toolpath DOWN along the vector of the tool until it comes in contact with the Check surface I set- which in this case is the final surface I actually want to cut.

 

The end result is that I get the tool pointing/roughing motion created by path #2, but projected to the lower surface.

 

I could combine these case methods and do both a projection and a restriction of tool angle, or add collision tilt away like a normal Morph/Parallel to avoid clamps/etc. The idea here is that while multiaxis Pocketing might not be able to give you exactly what you want due to the restrictions it calculates with, you can always take that motion as a starting point and modify it to suit your needs through a 3to5 conversion path. Hope this helps!

Dropped Pocketing Example.mcam

Excellent! Had the MC reseller showcased such capability, we would have shifted to MC longback! (but sadly even after showing your post, I understood that they have very little idea about this)

Thank a ton Chally!

[crazy^millman]

3 hours ago, Shiva.aero said:

Excellent! Had the MC reseller showcased such capability, we would have shifted to MC longback! (but sadly even after showing your post, I understood that they have very little idea about this)

Thank a ton Chally!

Well in the reseller’s defense there are so many different aspects to machining in general hard to be a Master of them all. Take into consideration how many dealers have a machine shop to even go experiment in? Their job is to sell me support the software, but this is a very specific extremely detailed area of manufacturing that very few companies in the world do. I don’t think any dealer should get a free pass and not be at least have people who are proficient in Mastercam, but I have used Mastercam for 20+ year and learned something from his posting on this topic and I helped with an impeller and have made many over the years. None of us have every arrived Iin this profession to do all that can be done. We can learn and do a lot, but to every fully know it all no way. Glad you’re learning and growing, but how do you program a 4 Turret Y axis 2 spindle lathe? Wire EDM? Vertical Mill turn with nutation head using an pivoting Right head? How about broaching on that same machine? Use a contour programmed head same machine? Program a Indy engine out of billet for horizontal 9 Axis mill/turn? That is just a few of the projects I have worked on in the last couple of years. My dealer is great and we have a great relationship. I talked to them and work with them. I hear some of the other people complaining about the dealers and sorry to hear that, but I guess I have been lucky to have worked with many of the dealers and  they were all good to work with. 
 

Please understand my posting not meant to be an attack just something to consider and think about before ripping into your dealer. 

[Colin Gilchrist]

To add to what Ron said:

The past three releases of Mastercam have seen some huge changes and advancements in the 5-Axis path options. I'm doing paths today in minutes that would have been an hour or more of work in X9 or even 2017, due to the enchancements that have been made.

Do yourself a favor and download a copy of the Multiaxis Help File for Mastercam. This is a separate download, available on the official Mastercam website, and is published by Moduleworks. Moduleworks is the company in Germany that develops much of the underlying Multiaxis and Simulation capabilities of Mastercam. 

Just reading through this help file has given me so much insight into how to use the various controls to get the output I need.

There are also some brilliant Sample Files (especially the Signature Part Series), that go with the What's New file. You can download these samples to see first hand how the new options work.

[Bill Craven]

This is why I love coming to eMastercam:  There is so much freely shared knowledge.  I come here every day and read and learn.

So many times in the past, I have seen programmers figure out a way of getting something done by trial and error and then use only that solution from then on because there is no one else to ask for help.  Sometimes this is because there is no time to find a better way.  "Why isn't that spindle turning?"

My personal thanks to all of the knowledgeable contributors.  No, that's not right.  My thanks to ALL contributors.  Sometimes those extra questions, trigger extra solutions.

And thank you IHS!

[Shiva.aero]

7 hours ago, crazy^millman said:

Well in the reseller’s defense there are so many different aspects to machining in general hard to be a Master of them all. Take into consideration how many dealers have a machine shop to even go experiment in? Their job is to sell me support the software, but this is a very specific extremely detailed area of manufacturing that very few companies in the world do. I don’t think any dealer should get a free pass and not be at least have people who are proficient in Mastercam, but I have used Mastercam for 20+ year and learned something from his posting on this topic and I helped with an impeller and have made many over the years. None of us have every arrived Iin this profession to do all that can be done. We can learn and do a lot, but to every fully know it all no way. Glad you’re learning and growing, but how do you program a 4 Turret Y axis 2 spindle lathe? Wire EDM? Vertical Mill turn with nutation head using an pivoting Right head? How about broaching on that same machine? Use a contour programmed head same machine? Program a Indy engine out of billet for horizontal 9 Axis mill/turn? That is just a few of the projects I have worked on in the last couple of years. My dealer is great and we have a great relationship. I talked to them and work with them. I hear some of the other people complaining about the dealers and sorry to hear that, but I guess I have been lucky to have worked with many of the dealers and  they were all good to work with. 
 

Please understand my posting not meant to be an attack just something to consider and think about before ripping into your dealer. 

Understood  What I only expect from them is that if they don't know something, instead of telling that such feature is not there, atleast they can redirect to someone or someplace where people knows the answers. We didn't purchase earlier MC because Blade expert is supporting dynamic roughing. Later through this forum, I came to know that it can be done through other tools and then we purchased it! I also very much agree that no know can know everything!  Thank you!

[Shiva.aero]

4 hours ago, Colin Gilchrist said:

To add to what Ron said:

The past three releases of Mastercam have seen some huge changes and advancements in the 5-Axis path options. I'm doing paths today in minutes that would have been an hour or more of work in X9 or even 2017, due to the enchancements that have been made.

Do yourself a favor and download a copy of the Multiaxis Help File for Mastercam. This is a separate download, available on the official Mastercam website, and is published by Moduleworks. Moduleworks is the company in Germany that develops much of the underlying Multiaxis and Simulation capabilities of Mastercam. 

Just reading through this help file has given me so much insight into how to use the various controls to get the output I need.

There are also some brilliant Sample Files (especially the Signature Part Series), that go with the What's New file. You can download these samples to see first hand how the new options work.

Downloaded Moduleworks help file. Mastercam University tutorials are better. Downloaded lot of mcam files from techexchange too. Even many of old post here in this forum gives deep understanding. Thank you!

[Colin Gilchrist]

14 hours ago, Shiva.aero said:

Downloaded Moduleworks help file. Mastercam University tutorials are better. Downloaded lot of mcam files from techexchange too. Even many of old post here in this forum gives deep understanding. Thank you!

The tutorials are good if you need a step-by-step process for creating a Toolpath.

The Moduleworks Help File is awesome because it shows you what each individual Toolpath switch or data entry field does. You should make sure the help file isn’t “blocked” by Windows. If the file is blocked, it won’t show the animations.

speaking of that; are you aware that there are many embedded videos in the help file? Anytime there is a "play button” you can press it to start the video.

I have spent many hours going through the information in the Multiaxis Help File, and I learn something new each time I read through it.

 

[Metallic]

Just wanted to pop in and say this is a fantastic thread! Lots of great knowledge to chew on, @Chally72 you are super smart! Your Titans of CNC promo gave me a whole slew of tidbits to think about regarding axis engagement and control

[Shiva.aero]

On 7/4/2021 at 8:18 PM, Colin Gilchrist said:

The tutorials are good if you need a step-by-step process for creating a Toolpath.

The Moduleworks Help File is awesome because it shows you what each individual Toolpath switch or data entry field does. You should make sure the help file isn’t “blocked” by Windows. If the file is blocked, it won’t show the animations.

speaking of that; are you aware that there are many embedded videos in the help file? Anytime there is a "play button” you can press it to start the video.

I have spent many hours going through the information in the Multiaxis Help File, and I learn something new each time I read through it.

 

Yes it's good! Thank you!

Noticed that there is no html help file in MC2022! Instead there is a chm help file, which we can access from inside of any operation/tool. But this new chm help is very brief. Earlier MC came with html help file it seems, which was having structured and detailed contents! Is there any way to get such html help file for MC2022? Or can somebody tell which last version of MC had such html help file?

 

Just I like to mention some of the youtube channels which have knowledge rich contents, since we are talking about the resources/help files:

1. Mastercam (good but needs to go to MC University to see the full content for many videos)

2. MLC CAD systems  (short and good contents)

3. In-house solutions

4. Streaming teacher

5. CamInstructor (discussed many practical problems)

6. ASPE Aerospace precision engineering (shown programming of Aerospace components and having other good contents like accelerated finishing techniques)

7. Colin Gilchrist (detailed videos on post processor) (is it you!?!)

 

All these channels have very good and advanced contents!

In our official MC university account (which is linked to the License), there is no access to the latest Multiaxis tutorials. It shows message that to contact reseller for the access. But my reseller says that since it is made free to all because of corona lockdown , some advanced contents are taken down by MC and that only after the end of free access we can get the full access! Why it is so? What can I do to get the full access?

 

Thank you!

 

 

 

 

 

[Colin Gilchrist]

6 hours ago, Shiva.aero said:

Yes it's good! Thank you!

Noticed that there is no html help file in MC2022! Instead there is a chm help file, which we can access from inside of any operation/tool. But this new chm help is very brief. Earlier MC came with html help file it seems, which was having structured and detailed contents! Is there any way to get such html help file for MC2022? Or can somebody tell which last version of MC had such html help file?

 

Just I like to mention some of the youtube channels which have knowledge rich contents, since we are talking about the resources/help files:

1. Mastercam (good but needs to go to MC University to see the full content for many videos)

2. MLC CAD systems  (short and good contents)

3. In-house solutions

4. Streaming teacher

5. CamInstructor (discussed many practical problems)

6. ASPE Aerospace precision engineering (shown programming of Aerospace components and having other good contents like accelerated finishing techniques)

7. Colin Gilchrist (detailed videos on post processor) (is it you!?!)

 

All these channels have very good and advanced contents!

In our official MC university account (which is linked to the License), there is no access to the latest Multiaxis tutorials. It shows message that to contact reseller for the access. But my reseller says that since it is made free to all because of corona lockdown , some advanced contents are taken down by MC and that only after the end of free access we can get the full access! Why it is so? What can I do to get the full access?

 

Thank you!

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, that is my channel.

My guess with the 5-Axis training content from Mastercam (and this is only a guess on my part), is that CNC Software is being mindful of United States Export Control Restrictions. There are technologies (5-Axis) which the US Government does not allow to be exported to several countries. [Iran, North Korea, Etc.]

My other thought is simply; they aren't giving this training away for free, because they want to earn revenue on that training content.

I am mainly self-taught on driving 5-Axis Toolpaths. I had some training on using the Curve 5-Axis path, Multi-surf, and 5X Flowline. But all of the Moduleworks Multi-Axis paths I've learned by reading the Moduleworks Help File, and from the posts and members of this Forum.

Karlo Apro also published a decent book on 5-Axis, called (appropriately) "Secrets of 5-Axis Machining". That is also a good resource for learning.

Check out Mastercam's Signature Part Series on YouTube. That is another great learning resource.