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WORKING TOO HARD! :-(


Bob W.
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19 minutes ago, Bob W. said:

Our goal is to grow through automation, not necessarily adding labor.  We leverage our employees time through improving and automating processes to reduce labor in parts and increase their productivity.  An example is we have our mill turn semi-finishing, probing, comping the tool, and finishing the feature all automatically.  I know this is nothing new but we actively identify challenging or time consuming features and improve the process to reduce labor and increase process reliability.  On production parts we have put significant effort into deburring on the machine and some deburr toolpaths are pretty involved but the result is reducing the labor in each part by a few hours so our deburr department can work on other things. 

These improvements aren't geared toward eliminating people, they are geared towards growing sales with the people we have.  The issue in this last month was in rework cycles.  If a feature is .0005" out and it is an expensive titanium casting it isn't going back into the machine to be fixed, it gets stoned by a craftsman.  We need to reduce/ eliminate the rework cycles through more robust processes going forward.  That was the hang up on this.  It isn't easy because often a feature is out because a casting relieves a little during machining so that has to be accounted for.  It is never ending...  Also we only have one operator for our NTX2000 mill-turn so having that sit every Friday wasn't good.  That machine produces ~$4k per day...

With our three Makino HMCs we are shooting for 250 spindle cut hours per week.  Our record (with some OT) was 320 in one week, single shift.

Stable reliable process wins every battle over faster speeds and feeds known to man. You are approaching it correctly and will master what it takes to get it working.

You throw Cobot on the Mill/Turn and might get your Friday running.

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Here are a few things we have done to make things easier.  One of our drill cycles is a custom macro call which allows Mastercam to control the tool, coolant, tool start position, etc...  It also allows calling pretty much an unlimited number of macros with up to 10 inputs.  The standard input for variable 'Z' is the macro revision, allowing revision control and checking at the machine if there is a significant tweak/ improvement to the macro.  This drill cycle has been VERY handy indeed. 

In the misc reals there is a tool load % input that allows specifying the tool load limit at the machine on a operation by operation basis.  If a tool that is set up to rough at 3/4" LOC is roughing at 1/4" LOC due to the specific geometry the load limit can be tailored to those parameters for that operation instead of a one size fits all at the machine.  We also have break tolerance inputs so we can specify break check tolerances on an operation to operation basis.  These sorts of things make it much easier to run challenging parts lights out or with no operator present.

Nothing too crazy but I figured some folks might find it interesting.

 

image.thumb.png.1b8c34446db95f08ea3d4030d50a26e5.png

 

image.thumb.png.d6c325f42574a87766fe7230dead6e01.png

The custom drill cycles for probing are all home grown as well.  They allow setting work offsets, DFO offsets, TCP parameters, 5-axis probing, measuring to tolerance, exporting values to macro variables for use in other macros (custom macro calls, etc...).  It really closes the loop on a lot of items that usually require intervention from an operator.

 

image.thumb.png.014032df56b36a064760986a4eed4421.png

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4 hours ago, Bob W. said:

Here are a few things we have done to make things easier.  One of our drill cycles is a custom macro call which allows Mastercam to control the tool, coolant, tool start position, etc...  It also allows calling pretty much an unlimited number of macros with up to 10 inputs.  The standard input for variable 'Z' is the macro revision, allowing revision control and checking at the machine if there is a significant tweak/ improvement to the macro.  This drill cycle has been VERY handy indeed. 

In the misc reals there is a tool load % input that allows specifying the tool load limit at the machine on a operation by operation basis.  If a tool that is set up to rough at 3/4" LOC is roughing at 1/4" LOC due to the specific geometry the load limit can be tailored to those parameters for that operation instead of a one size fits all at the machine.  We also have break tolerance inputs so we can specify break check tolerances on an operation to operation basis.  These sorts of things make it much easier to run challenging parts lights out or with no operator present.

Nothing too crazy but I figured some folks might find it interesting.

 

image.thumb.png.1b8c34446db95f08ea3d4030d50a26e5.png

 

image.thumb.png.d6c325f42574a87766fe7230dead6e01.png

The custom drill cycles for probing are all home grown as well.  They allow setting work offsets, DFO offsets, TCP parameters, 5-axis probing, measuring to tolerance, exporting values to macro variables for use in other macros (custom macro calls, etc...).  It really closes the loop on a lot of items that usually require intervention from an operator.

 

image.thumb.png.014032df56b36a064760986a4eed4421.png

Bob,

Have you played around with the Advanced Drill path yet in 2021 & 2022? It will likely be a great replacement for things like your "deep hole" and "gun drill" cycles. This, in turn, would free up some Custom Drill Cycles for other uses, should you find yourself limited. (I noticed yours were looking a bit full...)

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19 hours ago, Colin Gilchrist said:

Bob,

Have you played around with the Advanced Drill path yet in 2021 & 2022? It will likely be a great replacement for things like your "deep hole" and "gun drill" cycles. This, in turn, would free up some Custom Drill Cycles for other uses, should you find yourself limited. (I noticed yours were looking a bit full...)

I noticed that and it is why I added the custom macro call.  That pretty much  gives me a few hundred custom drill and probing cycles.  We have a word document that outlines the inputs/ outputs for all of the different macro cycles.

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58 minutes ago, Spotterhphc said:

gee wiz,

Where do I start when learning about custom drill cycles? I can see a huge benefit here. Nice work!

It is interesting and its all going to be Macro b i think.

The new advanced drill toolpath does solve some(many, not all) of the issues I have had with custom drill cycles which eliminates the need for certain macros.

 

Here is a good primer on Macro B https://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/cnc-machining/macro-programming-fundamentals-167395/

https://www.cnccookbook.com/cnc-macro-programming-fanuc-macro-b/

 

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1 hour ago, Spotterhphc said:

gee wiz,

Where do I start when learning about custom drill cycles? I can see a huge benefit here. Nice work!

I'm not sure, I'm self taught (with tons of help from this forum).  I figured out most of it through guess and check and brute force :-).  It is a combination of post editing and Macro B.  Peter Smid has a great book on Macro B called 'Fanuc CNC Custon Macros'.

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On 8/28/2021 at 5:21 PM, Bob W. said:

Here are a few things we have done to make things easier.  One of our drill cycles is a custom macro call which allows Mastercam to control the tool, coolant, tool start position, etc...  It also allows calling pretty much an unlimited number of macros with up to 10 inputs.  The standard input for variable 'Z' is the macro revision, allowing revision control and checking at the machine if there is a significant tweak/ improvement to the macro.  This drill cycle has been VERY handy indeed. 

In the misc reals there is a tool load % input that allows specifying the tool load limit at the machine on a operation by operation basis.  If a tool that is set up to rough at 3/4" LOC is roughing at 1/4" LOC due to the specific geometry the load limit can be tailored to those parameters for that operation instead of a one size fits all at the machine.  We also have break tolerance inputs so we can specify break check tolerances on an operation to operation basis.  These sorts of things make it much easier to run challenging parts lights out or with no operator present.

Nothing too crazy but I figured some folks might find it interesting.

 

image.thumb.png.1b8c34446db95f08ea3d4030d50a26e5.png

 

image.thumb.png.d6c325f42574a87766fe7230dead6e01.png

The custom drill cycles for probing are all home grown as well.  They allow setting work offsets, DFO offsets, TCP parameters, 5-axis probing, measuring to tolerance, exporting values to macro variables for use in other macros (custom macro calls, etc...).  It really closes the loop on a lot of items that usually require intervention from an operator.

 

image.thumb.png.014032df56b36a064760986a4eed4421.png

Bob, I like your approach, very similar to the things I do.  image.png.5d7cb386f9ff04ed0e1e5b331455973d.pngimage.png.04587be220c6abb2294abcd1da307668.pngimage.png.9c7adb0c2a127babcdbe7ffcf88a5ff2.png

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35 minutes ago, bd41612 said:

Mastercam Generic Fanuc 3X Mill.pst  It can also be done with Mpmaster.  The rest is up to your imagination.

So can I ask as question as it relates to getting the misc reals/int descriptors....How do yo change what each field says, I assume that is all done within the Control Definition. How do you link the CD to the post with something like that?

 

AND are you using Productivity+ for those macro probing routines or are those custom developed?

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18 minutes ago, Metallic said:

So can I ask as question as it relates to getting the misc reals/int descriptors....How do yo change what each field says, I assume that is all done within the Control Definition. How do you link the CD to the post with something like that?

 

AND are you using Productivity+ for those macro probing routines or are those custom developed?

It's done in the control definition. Select the post from the dropdown.

image.png.e377216fe3a317e27e654e2f726761b2.png

We have Productivity+ but I don't use it.  Didn't make a whole lot of sense to add 1500 lines of code to the program and some dozen or more sub programs just to pick up an offset.  I scrapped it and did it the old fashioned way that I've been doing it since V9.  I use the Renishaw macros that are part of the probe install.

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43 minutes ago, bd41612 said:

It's done in the control definition. Select the post from the dropdown.

image.png.e377216fe3a317e27e654e2f726761b2.png

We have Productivity+ but I don't use it.  Didn't make a whole lot of sense to add 1500 lines of code to the program and some dozen or more sub programs just to pick up an offset.  I scrapped it and did it the old fashioned way that I've been doing it since V9.  I use the Renishaw macros that are part of the probe install.

So I have 2 renishaw probes. Can you point me where I might find these macros. I have the documentation and boxes that they came in but I confess I am not sure where that info might be. THank you!

 

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10 minutes ago, Metallic said:

So I have 2 renishaw probes. Can you point me where I might find these macros. I have the documentation and boxes that they came in but I confess I am not sure where that info might be. THank you!

 

There should be a Renishaw Programming Manual, somewhere in those boxes. Lately, the great folks at Renishaw have been shipping a "plastic clamshell case", which looks like it holds a DVD (if your Probes were bought a while ago, it still might!), but now is fitted with a USB Memory Stick. The manual will be available on the Memory Stick.

In addition, depending on what software you bought, there will often be a "Macro Configuration Program". This is an "executable program", which displays a configuration page. You answer the questions by either selecting a drop-down menu option, or enabling a Checkbox. Also, there are some areas to enter M-Codes, if your machine uses M-Codes to turn the Probe on/off.

By going through that configuration page, you can then press the "save" button, which will either generate a bunch of separate Macro Programs, or a "single Program", which can be loaded into the Fanuc through the I/O panel. When loading the "single program", your Control will actually break up the incoming file into separate Macro Programs on your control. (using a 'single file' just makes the Data I/O part easier. The end result is exactly the same; Macro Programs loaded on your control, that end up being called as 'Subroutines'.)

You'll need a Gauge Block (I like 50mm or 2") of high-precision (for measuring the Probe Length), and a Ring Gauge (ID = 2" or 50mm, for best results), to calibrate the Spindle Probe. (If you also have a "Tool Probe", you should look to see if there was a "Master Gauge Tool" included with the Probe hardware. If not; https://igstool.com/cnc/cat40-tool-probe-calibrator-calibration-gage-tool/)

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1 hour ago, Colin Gilchrist said:

There should be a Renishaw Programming Manual, somewhere in those boxes. Lately, the great folks at Renishaw have been shipping a "plastic clamshell case", which looks like it holds a DVD (if your Probes were bought a while ago, it still might!), but now is fitted with a USB Memory Stick. The manual will be available on the Memory Stick.

In addition, depending on what software you bought, there will often be a "Macro Configuration Program". This is an "executable program", which displays a configuration page. You answer the questions by either selecting a drop-down menu option, or enabling a Checkbox. Also, there are some areas to enter M-Codes, if your machine uses M-Codes to turn the Probe on/off.

By going through that configuration page, you can then press the "save" button, which will either generate a bunch of separate Macro Programs, or a "single Program", which can be loaded into the Fanuc through the I/O panel. When loading the "single program", your Control will actually break up the incoming file into separate Macro Programs on your control. (using a 'single file' just makes the Data I/O part easier. The end result is exactly the same; Macro Programs loaded on your control, that end up being called as 'Subroutines'.)

You'll need a Gauge Block (I like 50mm or 2") of high-precision (for measuring the Probe Length), and a Ring Gauge (ID = 2" or 50mm, for best results), to calibrate the Spindle Probe. (If you also have a "Tool Probe", you should look to see if there was a "Master Gauge Tool" included with the Probe hardware. If not; https://igstool.com/cnc/cat40-tool-probe-calibrator-calibration-gage-tool/)

Thanks for that info Colin, super helpful. Luckily for us I do have all the calibration equipment needed. Last year I decided to learn how to configure and modify centerline rotation points and all that so we wouldn't need service to come out and work on our machines. Much cheaper that way in the long run. Master gauge length tool, Z axis gauge, etc etc.

Ill take a look through what docs I have from Renishaw to see if I can find what I need.

 

Cheers

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On 9/8/2021 at 12:42 PM, Metallic said:

So can I ask as question as it relates to getting the misc reals/int descriptors....How do yo change what each field says, I assume that is all done within the Control Definition. How do you link the CD to the post with something like that?

 

AND are you using Productivity+ for those macro probing routines or are those custom developed?

I developed my own routines within Mastercam and they reference the Renishaw macros on the machine.  In short, I didn't buy the Mastercam add-on, I did it myself and built in a lot more functionality.

On 9/2/2021 at 1:01 PM, So not a Guru said:

@bd41612 & @Bob W., what base post are you using for these custom drill cycles? MPMASTER?

[POST_VERSION] #DO NOT MOVE OR ALTER THIS LINE# V23.00 P0 E1 W23.00 T1593638671 M23.00 I0 O0
# Post Name           : Makino A51.pst
# Product             : Mill
# Machine Name        : Generic
# Control Name        : Fanuc
# Description         : Generic 4 Axis Mill Post
# 4-axis/Axis subs.   : Yes
# 5-axis              : No
# Subprograms         : Yes
# Executable          : MP 14.0

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  • 2 years later...

We did it for the one month and that was it.  Employees were agreeable at first but after a week or so there wasn't much of an effort to make sure projects shipped on time.  At the onset we had specified that if there were issues and projects were in jeopardy people would need to be available to fill in the gaps to hold the schedule and that is where things sort of fell apart.  I think something like this could work but we are a little small in employee count to make it work IMO.

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14 hours ago, Bob W. said:

We did it for the one month and that was it.  Employees were agreeable at first but after a week or so there wasn't much of an effort to make sure projects shipped on time.  At the onset we had specified that if there were issues and projects were in jeopardy people would need to be available to fill in the gaps to hold the schedule and that is where things sort of fell apart.  I think something like this could work but we are a little small in employee count to make it work IMO.

Ah, that's unfortunate.  Good on you for trying it, though!

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On 10/2/2023 at 7:04 PM, Bob W. said:

We did it for the one month and that was it.  Employees were agreeable at first but after a week or so there wasn't much of an effort to make sure projects shipped on time.  At the onset we had specified that if there were issues and projects were in jeopardy people would need to be available to fill in the gaps to hold the schedule and that is where things sort of fell apart.  I think something like this could work but we are a little small in employee count to make it work IMO.

I've seen this work in practice, but it requires an excess in capacity of labor to start with,

also there wasn't compensation for the day..

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