Jump to content

Welcome to eMastercam

Register now to participate in the forums, access the download area, buy Mastercam training materials, post processors and more. This message will be removed once you have signed in.

Use your display name or email address to sign in:

Mastercam integration into the machine shop and engineering office


Stredda
 Share

Recommended Posts

G'day all,

 

Our little engineering business is about to enter into the world of Mastercam.

We are in the process of installing a Okuma Multus U 3000 into the machine shop and will be using Mastercam to handle the CAM side of things. 

I am after some advice from someone who has gone through this experience on the process control and integration with the engineering office. We are using Autodesk Inventor and Vault for all our CAD applications and I'm interested to know how others have gone about things like revision control for the CAM programs, protocols for pulling the files from a PDM application and a overarching process to allow their machine shop to run smoothly.

Our machine shop side of the business handles production and new design work from the engineering office and manufacturing team but also does a reasonable amount of "jobbing" work that comes in the door.

I'm hoping that the integration of Mastercam will be a relatively pain free experience. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Cimco has some software that can assist you in keeping revision history clear, you can setup different permissions for modifying files and if the file gets modified on the machine and pushed back to the server you can set permissions before it writes over the last version.  

Cimco NC base would be a decent way to start (link below).  They also have a product called MDM which sounds similar to your current setup.    

https://www.cimco.com/software/cimco-nc-base/overview/

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Doing med devices here.  I name my Mastercam files by part name and revision, and program revision (major and minor).  NC files get the same plus the operation number.  Any decent PDM system should be able to handle checking those files in and out if you feel the need.

For a while I had some quality system consultants trying to get me to lock processes, and require a bunch of paperwork to make any changes, but I resisted that as strongly as I could.  Once you lock a process you can't improve it without a big rigmarol, and I'm always working to shorten the cycle time and improve part quality and process reliability, often making several changes over the course of a run.  The QC happens at inspection; if the part passes, then the process was good.

We ended up with a compromise to make the MBA's happy.  I'd do whatever I want with the programs, make the parts, and then my supervisor would sign off on the changes when the parts passed inspection.

  • Thanks 1
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites
On 8/12/2021 at 10:09 AM, Matthew Hajicek - Conventus said:

Doing med devices here.  I name my Mastercam files by part name and revision, and program revision (major and minor).  NC files get the same plus the operation number.  Any decent PDM system should be able to handle checking those files in and out if you feel the need.

For a while I had some quality system consultants trying to get me to lock processes, and require a bunch of paperwork to make any changes, but I resisted that as strongly as I could.  Once you lock a process you can't improve it without a big rigmarol, and I'm always working to shorten the cycle time and improve part quality and process reliability, often making several changes over the course of a run.  The QC happens at inspection; if the part passes, then the process was good.

We ended up with a compromise to make the MBA's happy.  I'd do whatever I want with the programs, make the parts, and then my supervisor would sign off on the changes when the parts passed inspection.

Good points and seen too many times where people think over defining the system and locking it down prevents extra work when most times is add tons more to it. Had a quality manger write all files from a customer would go through DPD/MBD verification. Auditor came in and then asked for the log of all emails other non important files that didn't need that done where was it done. Our quality manger was fit to be tied, but they wrote it that way. Had they wrote it that all files that required DPD/MBD verification are checked and logged then what we already doing was compliant, but because they tried to lock everything down and not make it flexible where needed they painted themselves into a corner.

Another example at a different company was we used red tags in the company for anything that had an issue. They wrote the quality manual that stated we used no Red tags verse writing it we used them for certain things. Verses changing the quality manual to match what we did the quality manager didn't want red tags mentioned anywhere in the quality manual. He said it looks bad and to just hid them for the audit. Auditor saw one red tag and questioned it and got lied to. They came back on 3rd shift and went to one of the operators and asked them to show them where they can get a red tag. Operator was told to comply with all Auditor requests and took them to the drawer where all the red tag where being hidden and where the log book for them all were. Major finding and it took 3 months longer to be AS-9100 certified than needed because the quality manger didn't want to have the manual follow what we did. 

Biggest rule of any system. Keep is simple and only document what you do and requires checks to check that. Allow flexibility where needed and rigidity where needed and things will always work better in the long run.

 

  • Thanks 1
  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Good answers here - I would like to think that you'll want a system - any system - and make it simple and clean. The problem is, people do things one way, another person does things another way. What you want to avoid is the silo-ing of knowledge that I see too often occur. What I mean is we have a guy named Mike. Mike helps get your machine shop setup and running, helps integrate the CAM into your company workflow, and man is he a good machinist/programmer. Mike does things his own way though. So yea while he follows the system pretty well he also has his own system (mental or otherwise). He even has a massive spreadsheet of what the company would consider critical data such as feeds/speed recipes for specific applications and also a fixture numbering scheme that helps keep his portion of the business organized.

Mike gets a job offer at SpaceX so he is leaving the company. Guess where all that data is going? It's probably going along with Mike to SpaceX. So now your company is losing that data and the time and energy it took the guy to create that data. One way to circumvent this is what we do - we have an intranet network that deposits all of this key data into a shared location that anyone (or only some people) have access to. It is all organized by use-case need. HR people don't need speeds and feeds so it is organized as such. This helps with the little things, things that don't make sense to have into a formal system or ERP or PDM software you run. Things like contact info. You'll think I am a little wonky but I am not because it is really nice to have your rockstar service tech's cell number on hand so you can reach out directly (during business hours!) to that individual instead of having to go to the main office and try to get the tech on the line. If that # is only in someone's phone and that person leaves then you have a problem!

At a most basic level you can name revs like "PN 123-456-789_Rev2.1_Jun2021"

Anyways I'll stop waxing poetic about the beauty of systems and whatever but I would say it is a mission critical portion of any business that needs some serious thought put into it by any key stakeholders.

 

Edit - another thing that I simply DO NOT do is saving NC files in a big database. For one thing, it may or may not be actually what you think it is. It may say it is the version you want but it might be that it got overwritten at one point. I always re-post from the Mastercam source file and overwrite whatever was there before.

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for the input guys, it's certainly food for thought.

I'm only 4 weeks into the company and don't have the CNC background (boilermaker trade and now engineering) so it's a lot to get my head around but we will be closely working with the guys in the machine shop because as Metallic said, if that guy with all the knowledge leaves the company, you don't want all the knowledge to go with him. So part of the process it to put a system in place to standardize the CNC/CAM process but the other is to lock in and document the structure of the whole operation from quoting through to shipping the product out the door.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
On 8/12/2021 at 10:30 AM, crazy^millman said:

Biggest rule of any system. Keep is simple and only document what you do and requires checks to check that. Allow flexibility where needed and rigidity where needed and things will always work better in the long run.

That's a fact. We have a customer that "by documented procedure" specifies what machining/turning center a particular part is to run on. VERY limiting IMHO but ok fine. However "by documented procedure", once a part is bought off/FAI good on a particular machining center (not just model, but serial number machine), it must stay there for the duration of the contract. Anyone else see the problem in that? 😮

  • Like 2
  • Haha 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, cncappsjames said:

That's a fact. We have a customer that "by documented procedure" specifies what machining/turning center a particular part is to run on. VERY limiting IMHO but ok fine. However "by documented procedure", once a part is bought off/FAI good on a particular machining center (not just model, but serial number machine), it must stay there for the duration of the contract. Anyone else see the problem in that? 😮

Hah!  I helped someone with some process enginerding and modernization of a part that would have saved somewhere in the area of 30-40 hours per part, basically ending up around $160k of savings per year, thanks to faster material removal, better fixturization, etc. 

They ended up declining the new setup because it wasn't worth the effort/profit to them to get the part re-certified.  It was the same exact situation you've described, where it had to be on that particular machine for all of the processing, which meant they were doing 3 total fixture changeovers.  It was hilariously inefficient. 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites
  • 2 weeks later...

Autodesk Vault has one ability that is not available in most PDM systems: It does not encrypt file names and folders in the local cache. 

That means that the folder location you see in Vault is the real folder location where the file is stored in the local file system, usually a sub-folder of your C:\Work\... cache. 

Want a simple and somehow reliable protocol within the possibilities of your tool set? Something that can save you from renaming Inventor models and appending rev levels to the file name? 

1 - In Vault, do a "Get" on the model you need to download locally. 

2 - In Mastercam, open the Inventor file from the original location where it sits in the Vault local cache. 

3 - Now every time there's an engineering rev, run a "Get" command in Vault again and use the option overwrite files. If the model changes, size and filestamp / md5 hash will change, and that will tell Mastercam your model changed and will force it to reload it just with a "Get" with "Overwrite" in the Vault side. 

4 - If possible, get CIMCO MDM or NC-BASE to manage the CNC programs while having a DNC connection to the machines. Vault can store CNC programs but it would suck to integrate to your DNC. Suck bad. 

JM2C 

 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

CIMCO MDM can also create links to the model's file location instead of forcing you to duplicate the model. So one single source of truth here. 

Then you can create a CNC program or document, create a sub structure (level) where you can have the CNC program, the Inventor model (Not as a duplicate, but instead a live link to the Vault local cache), setup sheets, tool lists, pics, whatever you want.

Operators and programmers can see the MBOM in a web browser or a desktop application.

CIMCO MDM and NC-BASE are essentially PDM systems with STRONG focus on shop floor users, low cost per seat compared to a mainstream PDM, and ease of use.

All that + a direct connection to CNC machines via DNC. 

Mainstream PDM systems don't touch DNC, even with a ten foot pole. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites
On 8/17/2021 at 5:39 PM, cncappsjames said:

That's a fact. We have a customer that "by documented procedure" specifies what machining/turning center a particular part is to run on. VERY limiting IMHO but ok fine. However "by documented procedure", once a part is bought off/FAI good on a particular machining center (not just model, but serial number machine), it must stay there for the duration of the contract. Anyone else see the problem in that? 😮

These are the shops that often close doors in times like these, when the aerospace industry goes through a new downturn... 

We're this inneficient as well, but in Oil&Gas so too big to fail. 

Problem with that approach is that in 5 years you have hundreds or thousands of machining processes that are obsolete somehow and don't have time or resources to bring them to the speed, so you don't understand when Boing moves the order to a competitor who kept his company nimble and had low tolerance with complacency. 

Easier said than done and FAI is a PITA, but tolerating this kind of issue and allowing it to grow is a dangerous mindset if you ask me. 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Personally....I'd have a directory structure of 

Customer

Within this a folder of Part No with Issue No

Within that folder everything to make the part including program and set sheet.

Also within, an OOI (Out of Issue) folder which has within that, previous Issue number together with all info to make the part at that issue (including copy of prog and set sheet). Prog to have at the top....Part # and Issue #. Set up sheet too.

 

Then...Cimco.

With the production prog in there and the set up sheet (pdf) linked to it. You can then pull the prog into a machine and if you make edits at the machine, send it back for approval by "someone" who can then delete it or save it overwriting the previous.

Nice and simple and excellent.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.

Join us!

eMastercam - your online source for all things Mastercam.

Together, we are the strongest Mastercam community on the web with over 56,000 members, and our online store offers a wide selection of training materials for all applications and skill levels.

Follow us

×
×
  • Create New...