Dynamic feeds and speeds on a Haas VF2

[gcode]

I'm programming a job on a Haas V2 with a 10K 20hp geared spindle ... see attachment 

The last time I programmed a Haas, dynamic milling didn't even exist.

I need some advice.

I know the best advice is to use a stronger machine, but you go to war with the army you have, not the army  you wish you had.

Material is 316L 

Tool is a Helical 3/4 endmill P/N 83009  3/4 x 1.25 loc x .03R 5 flute in a hydraulic holder

desired length of cut 1.100  with .070 stepover

I've tried a number of sources for feeds and speeds and they are all over the map 

Helical Machining Advisor says  2390 rpm at 255 ipm

HSM Advisor says  1971 rpm at 64 ipm with an over torque warning

GWizard says 2342 rpm at 83 ipm  with the slider.

We got a lot of parts to build and it's important to get this right

Any help would be appreciated

TIA

 

Haas 40T gear-box Spindle Torque Chart.pdf

[Newbeeee™]

Tom,
My figures for my old machines (which were budget Chevalier #40 10k spindle belt drive...) :-

12mm 5 flute (16mm "hammered" the part where the 12mm was softer and quieter and a whole lot better tool life)
Garr V5 gave best tool life for me with what i tried (being a pikey i never was too spendy on expensive cutters though  )
304 (very similar to 316)
Short and stubby sidelock gave better tool life over a Schunk Hydraulic and a Showa Micron chuck
Coolant running at 10% also made a very noticeable difference (over 5%).
DOC 150%
Toolpath Rad 3mm
10% stepover (1.2mm)
S2555
F1500 (this gave a great tool life which is what I was after as we ran unmanned).

I wouldn't up the RPM that much - that is what killed the tools in 304. The feed can go up (a little), depending on rigidity of part/setup.

303 which is a totally different beast, we'd be running all day on very similar parts at S5000 F3000 and same 10% stepover and with 3x the tool life....

[CADCAM3D5AXIS]

^^^ Tom you can also set the tool torque limit in the tool page and it will self adjust if the tool starts to get dull and it will auto back off. so then you can check you tool wear or adjust the ratio up or down to fit your tool. Its a little handy so if your not there at the control to stop the wreckage it will save itself.  I also like to run the coolant @ 12%  and that works good for TI and SS and nickel based Materials  so for a V2  that pretty much will keep it going. Peel the  stuff as Newbeeee says that's right in the ball park for most of those things.

Good Luck

and Happy Labor Day Weekend

Now Get back to work Unless Your Newbeeee  then go watch some races or work on your suntan

[Colin Gilchrist]

17 hours ago, gcode said:

I'm programming a job on a Haas V2 with a 10K 20hp geared spindle ... see attachment 

The last time I programmed a Haas, dynamic milling didn't even exist.

I need some advice.

I know the best advice is to use a stronger machine, but you go to war with the army you have, not the army  you wish you had.

Material is 316L 

Tool is a Helical 3/4 endmill P/N 83009  3/4 x 1.25 loc x .03R 5 flute in a hydraulic holder

desired length of cut 1.100  with .070 stepover

I've tried a number of sources for feeds and speeds and they are all over the map 

Helical Machining Advisor says  2390 rpm at 255 ipm

HSM Advisor says  1971 rpm at 64 ipm with an over torque warning

GWizard says 2342 rpm at 83 ipm  with the slider.

We got a lot of parts to build and it's important to get this right

Any help would be appreciated

TIA

 

Haas 40T gear-box Spindle Torque Chart.pdf

Tom,

Looking at the Spindle Torque Chart > 2,500 RPM's is the Shift Point between low/high gear. In Low Gear, your best range is 500-1500 RPM's for torque.

@ 400 RPM, you've got about 225 ft/lbs of torque.

@ 1,000 RPM, you've got about 120 ft/lbs.

@ 2,000 RPM, we are down to about 48 ft/lbs, and at 2,350 the torque is down to maybe 35 ft/lbs.

In FSWizard, I entered the data, with Chip Thinning enabled, but HSM disabled, and got the following:

1,216 RPM (=238 SFM)

54.9 IPM (=0.009 IPT)

I'd definitely recommend running the spindle in Low Gear, and below 1,500 RPM, for best torque.

 

 

 

You could probably run 1,500 RPM @ 70-80 IPM, with great success.

If possible; use a larger rounding radius in the Dynamic path. 

[gcode]

1 hour ago, CADCAM3D5AXIS said:

^^^ Tom you can also set the tool torque limit in the tool page and it will self adjust if the tool starts to get dull and it will auto back off.

Is this something modern Haas controls have?

The last time I ran a Haas was 2001 and they were mid 90's vintage machines.

Colin's point about low gear is good though that causes an issue with Newbie's recommended feeds and speeds

I have been looking for stubby hydraulic chucks, but they all seem to come in at 3.5 to 4" gage length.

It goes against the grain, but perhaps a stubby Weldon toolholder would be better. They are certainly cheaper!

I had not thought of running a high coolant concentration but that is a great idea.

Thanks all!!!

 

[Colin Gilchrist]

Tom,

Newbie and I are recommending the same Feeds (1,500 mm/min is 60 IPM). I just think the increase in torque is a good trade off for running the lower RPM. 

You can always try a range of RPM Values and check the chip color...

[crazy^millman]

15 hours ago, Colin Gilchrist said:

Tom,

Newbie and I are recommending the same Feeds (1,500 mm/min is 60 IPM). I just think the increase in torque is a good trade off for running the lower RPM. 

You can always try a range of RPM Values and check the chip color...

The other advantage it more step over. Might get up to 40% step over with the lower torque. When running lower torque where we have to decrease the step over and start to use chip thinning to help.

[Bill Craven]

Back in 2015, we ran some tests in collaboration with Mastercam doing 75% dynamic stepover in X9 with a Sandvik 10mm 5 flute end mill.  

The goal of this exercise was to see what could be accomplished with and older machine with limited memory and look ahead.

Machine = Haas VF5. CAT50 with a hydraulic chuck. (I don't think that it had a geared head.  Spindle load was around 80% if I recall correctly.)

Material = 304ss

SFM = 265, rpm = 2550

Fz = .001,  ipm = 12

Ae = 75%, (.28)

Ap = 200%,  (.75)

It was run dry with high pressure air.  The end mill measured 91 degrees F immediately after stopping 

 

[Colin Gilchrist]

23 hours ago, crazy^millman said:

The other advantage it more step over. Might get up to 40% step over with the lower torque. When running lower torque where we have to decrease the step over and start to use chip thinning to help.

Agreed. I'd suggest starting with 20% radial stepover.

[Matthew Hajicek - Singularity]

I don't have any experience with a geared head, but on the direct drive 2015 VF-3SS I'd just plug in the numbers from Helical and go.

[Newbeeee™]

5 hours ago, Bill Craven said:

Back in 2015, we ran some tests in collaboration with Mastercam doing 75% dynamic stepover in X9 with a Sandvik 10mm 5 flute end mill.  

The goal of this exercise was to see what could be accomplished with and older machine with limited memory and look ahead.

Machine = Haas VF5. CAT50 with a hydraulic chuck. (I don't think that it had a geared head.  Spindle load was around 80% if I recall correctly.)

Material = 304ss

SFM = 265, rpm = 2550

Fz = .001,  ipm = 12

Ae = 75%, (.28)

Ap = 200%,  (.75)

It was run dry with high pressure air.  The end mill measured 91 degrees F immediately after stopping 

 

That has absolutely amazed me that the tool never snapped like a twig within 3 minutes!

And all testing i ever did comparing coolant to dry, was coolant lasted longer. And with facemill tips, when they started to go, if it was dry i'd better get there pronto! If wet, it was a long slow process where i could go and put the kettle on and have a brew! Then change the tips.

[zero_divide]

On 9/4/2021 at 4:05 PM, gcode said:

Helical Machining Advisor says  2390 rpm at 255 ipm

If you run it like that please get the video rolling. I want to see that!

Btw on HSMAdvisor 150% Torque Limit is considered safe (when everything is solid)

[Bill Craven]

I have a video of cutting the 304 part, but am checking to see if I am allowed to share it or not.

 

In the mean time: Cimquest published a video back in 2016 showing the power cutting Dynamic motion versus the traditional 'speed cutting' dynamic motion on a Haas VF2 with mild steel. 

This is almost counter intuitive.

 

 

Cutter selection and grade are critical to this working efficiently.

[Chally72]

For filming and environmental reasons, we don't actually run coolant in our Manufacturing Lab machines at Mastercam. It makes the stainless work a little more challenging!