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Toolpath Manager Frustrations


JB7280
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Am I alone in thinking that Mastercam's Toolpath Manager is the worst part of Mastercam by a long shot?  I'm constantly moving operations on accident, and when I do have to intentionally re-order some operations, it's painfully clunky.  For something that may be used more than any other part of Mastercam, why hasn't it been improved?

 

Not sure if that sentiment is shared here.  I know i've saw similar opinions on PracticalMachinist.  But sometimes those guys are grumpy just for the sake of being grumpy.

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1 hour ago, SlaveCam said:

It was improved. The icons were renewed in 2022.

 

1 hour ago, gms1 said:

And now they blend in nicely with my grey background so I can hardly see them at all. Definite downgrade for me.

Ha, I was fine with the visual change but you're right.  The color change was not the best choice!

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The issue is the hover distance for your mouse. There was a topic about a windows default setting for this that is set in pixels.

Link 1

Link 2

Link 3

A couple of topics I found on the subject. I changed mine very high and that was not good so have adjusted it down, but not back to the default settings in Windows and this issue got much better, but yes has been one of those beat your head on the desk things for many versions. That and the red arrow of death.

image.png.9085d1e27115d2248f511d501f9cce41.png

Here is what I have settled into, but thinking about messing with it again.

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Thank you Ron, I'll try that.  However, I feel like the whole layout just leaves a lot to be desired.  Hopefully this at least helps some.

I remember the layout of Esprits operations/toolpaths being quite nice.  Very easy to re-order/ organize toolpaths.  If only we could take all the good, and get rid of the bad from each CAM package!!

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1 hour ago, JB7280 said:

Thank you Ron, I'll try that.  However, I feel like the whole layout just leaves a lot to be desired.  Hopefully this at least helps some.

I remember the layout of Esprits operations/toolpaths being quite nice.  Very easy to re-order/ organize toolpaths.  If only we could take all the good, and get rid of the bad from each CAM package!!

The big question is how are you reorganizing the paths?

> I recommend always, always, using 'click to select, (CTRL or SHIFT, to select a range), then 'Right-click, Hold-and-drag, then release on the Destination Operation. You will get a Right-click Menu, with:

> Move Before

> Move After

> Copy Before

> Copy After

> Cancel

I think the 'cancel' command is critical, because if you accidentally pick the wrong Op, or your finger slips, you can avoid disaster. But the ability to choose Move or Copy is also a huge help.

I also like to use Toolpath Groups, and make 'Subgroups', so I don't have a single list with dozens or hundreds of Ops in a row. I tend to use some type of 'main top-level Group' (OP10, OP20, OP30, etc.), and then usually a few main subgroups underneath that. (Initial Stock, Rough, Semi-Fin, Finish, End-of-Op)

I always put an 'empty group' (end-of-op), at the bottom of each Main Group. This is so I can put my Insert Arrow there, and 'left-click', to deselect the Ops in all groups. Basically I do this so I can have "no Toolpath" to click on. This is because I use the 'Display only selected Toolpaths' switch. So 'all Toolpaths are set to be 'visible', and they display when clicked. But I want to be able to quickly 'not display any Toolpath', also. Having an 'empty group' gives me that ability.

Also, are you aware of the 'Toolpath selection' function in the Right-click Menu in the Toolpaths Manager? This gives you the ability to set "filters" for selecting Toolpaths, according to Tool #, Operation Type, and so much more.

One final trick I use is the 'Display Options'. With this, you can turn off things like the Operation Name, and Toolpath Name, even the T/C Plane Name, or WCS. For example, I can turn off everything but the WCS Name, and Operation Comment, and then can quickly scan 100's of Ops to make sure WCS is all set the same. Then I restore the display as needed.

 

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On 9/17/2021 at 10:16 PM, Colin Gilchrist said:

The big question is how are you reorganizing the paths?

> I recommend always, always, using 'click to select, (CTRL or SHIFT, to select a range), then 'Right-click, Hold-and-drag, then release on the Destination Operation. You will get a Right-click Menu, with:

> Move Before

> Move After

> Copy Before

> Copy After

> Cancel

I think the 'cancel' command is critical, because if you accidentally pick the wrong Op, or your finger slips, you can avoid disaster. But the ability to choose Move or Copy is also a huge help.

I also like to use Toolpath Groups, and make 'Subgroups', so I don't have a single list with dozens or hundreds of Ops in a row. I tend to use some type of 'main top-level Group' (OP10, OP20, OP30, etc.), and then usually a few main subgroups underneath that. (Initial Stock, Rough, Semi-Fin, Finish, End-of-Op)

I always put an 'empty group' (end-of-op), at the bottom of each Main Group. This is so I can put my Insert Arrow there, and 'left-click', to deselect the Ops in all groups. Basically I do this so I can have "no Toolpath" to click on. This is because I use the 'Display only selected Toolpaths' switch. So 'all Toolpaths are set to be 'visible', and they display when clicked. But I want to be able to quickly 'not display any Toolpath', also. Having an 'empty group' gives me that ability.

Also, are you aware of the 'Toolpath selection' function in the Right-click Menu in the Toolpaths Manager? This gives you the ability to set "filters" for selecting Toolpaths, according to Tool #, Operation Type, and so much more.

One final trick I use is the 'Display Options'. With this, you can turn off things like the Operation Name, and Toolpath Name, even the T/C Plane Name, or WCS. For example, I can turn off everything but the WCS Name, and Operation Comment, and then can quickly scan 100's of Ops to make sure WCS is all set the same. Then I restore the display as needed.

 

Thanks, lots of good information Colin.  Somebody (I think it was you, Colin) showed me the toolpath selection menu.  Very useful.  I do use the right click menu to move toolpaths around.  The biggest issues I run into are, sometimes I'll move things, and the wrong thing gets moved because I clicked on it, and it didn't select it for whatever reason, and sometimes while mousing over the toolpath menu, My finger will bump one of the mouse buttons for a tiny second, and boom, everything that was selected gets moved.  Granted, those are my own misclicks, or whatever, but something about it just feels off. 

 

As far as the organization, I've been trying to do it like this. 

 

tpm.thumb.jpg.92688a076d18b4a9b6a2813b014d585e.jpg

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One thing that I found out by making the mistake of accidentally moving operations around. Make sure that you have the operation(s) that you want to move highlighted and nothing else before dragging.  I've had an operation that I had no intention of moving highlighted, right clicked on the operation that I did want to move, drag and let go only to figure out that it never actually selected the operation that I right clicked on and ended up moving the operation that was originally highlighted. 

I thought that I was going nuts or that there was a bug until someone from MC pointed this out to me.  Now I'm super careful to make sure that everything I need to move is highlighted before dragging anything around. 

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50 minutes ago, neurosis said:

Now I'm super careful to make sure that everything I need to move is highlighted before dragging anything around. 

I never drag /drop in the ops manager

I position the Red Arrow of Doom where I want the op to go, then cut/paste

I have my mouse sensitivity set high and it's too easy to screw things up dragging and dropping

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1 hour ago, JB7280 said:

Thanks, lots of good information Colin.  Somebody (I think it was you, Colin) showed me the toolpath selection menu.  Very useful.  I do use the right click menu to move toolpaths around.  The biggest issues I run into are, sometimes I'll move things, and the wrong thing gets moved because I clicked on it, and it didn't select it for whatever reason, and sometimes while mousing over the toolpath menu, My finger will bump one of the mouse buttons for a tiny second, and boom, everything that was selected gets moved.  Granted, those are my own misclicks, or whatever, but something about it just feels off. 

 

As far as the organization, I've been trying to do it like this. 

 

tpm.thumb.jpg.92688a076d18b4a9b6a2813b014d585e.jpg

Your Ops Tree organization looks great.

Something critical to note > never use "right-click" to 'select operations'. You should always 'left-click, to select, then right-click to perform an action'. Take the extra half-second to make sure the 'correct Ops are selected, and nothing else is included'.

I always, always, do this when selecting something to move/copy:

  • Left-Click on a different Operation, from my "target operation". (make sure 'something else' is selected.)
  • Left-Click on my 'Target Operation'. (The first Op I want to select. Doesn't matter if I am selecting a single-operation, or a range.)
  • If needed, I will use CTRL or SHIFT, in combination with an additional Left-Click(s), to select whatever 'group of ops', I'm trying to select.
  • Finally, I will then Right-Click on my Target Operation, and continue holding the [RMB], until I've highlighted the 'Destination Operation'.
  • When I let go of the [RMB], I'll then have my Move/Copy/Cancel options, and choose the appropriate command.

(The important part of that sequence is "selecting something else" (puts the focus on a different Operation), then "[LMB] selecting the actual Target Operation". This ensures that I've "deselected any previously active selection" [clicking on a different op], and made sure that there aren't "other selected Ops" which I wasn't aware of. It is super easy to accidentally select a "range of ops", without being aware of that happening, if you attempt to use the [RMB] to select the Operation on which you are attempting to perform an action. I always "left-click, release, then right-click", in order to ensure proper selection...)

Are you, by chance, programming on a laptop? Or are you working on a desktop? The reason I ask > is because of the touchpad.

On my laptop, I have my computer set to "disable the touch pad, when a mouse is inserted". (Technically; I unchecked "leave touchpad on, when mouse is inserted".)

In addition, there is also a "track pointer" or "point stick". This is more difficult to disable. You may have to delve into the Device Manager, to disable the "HID Compliant" device, underneath "Mouse and pointing devices".

Finally, depending on your hardware and OS (Windows 10) > you may benefit from disabling the 'Service' for touchpad & handwriting:

  • Press [Windows Key] + [R] (Run)
  • In the 'Run' dialog (Open), Type 'services.msc', and press [Enter]
  • If prompted; enter an Admin Username + Password
  • Locate the 'Touch Keyboard and Handwriting Panel Service' name (in the Services List), and Right-Click
  • Choose 'Stop'.

Note that if stopping this Service is helpful > you'll need to remember to do this each time you boot up your computer.

There is a 'Free Tool' from Sys Internals (amazing site, and books!!!), called 'Autoruns', which can be used to permanently delete a Service, but be very careful if you choose to go this route. (And test, test, test, before you choose to Delete a Windows Service.) If you accidentally delete a Service that is essential, there is no easy way to restore it. You may be able to 'Repair' a desktop Application to restore the service, but it could also require you to completely reinstall Windows, so be careful!

By the way, 'Autoruns' is one of the most extensive tools available to give you control over 'auto-start' programs, allowing you to really clean-up your system. (Mark Russinovich is a God among men...)

 https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/downloads/autoruns

 

 

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1 hour ago, gcode said:

I never drag /drop in the ops manager

I position the Red Arrow of Doom where I want the op to go, then cut/paste

I have my mouse sensitivity set high and it's too easy to screw things up dragging and dropping

Correct me if I am wrong but was this always a feature? I seem to remember the right click/hold/drag/drop was the only way to move toolpaths until recently. Or maybe I am misremembering.

I do a combination of both in terms of copy/pasting and drag/dropping. I have had a few hiccups here and there and I can say that it is definitely annoying, but not that big of a deal.

 

I personally kinda like the toolpath manager and in fact, I am not even sure what they could do to make it more intuitive. I am sure there are many things but I am not a UX designer so I dunno. It packs a lot of functionality into that little strip of pixels!

Is there a way yet to dock the toolpath manager, and the other managers OUTSIDE of your main mastercam window? Say I want to have a huge graphics window and I want to "mount" my managers on my other monitor somewhere so I can expand it in size and open it up a bit more?

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24 minutes ago, Metallic said:

Is there a way yet to dock the toolpath manager, and the other managers OUTSIDE of your main mastercam window? Say I want to have a huge graphics window and I want to "mount" my managers on my other monitor somewhere so I can expand it in size and open it up a bit more?

It's not "docked", but it is persistent.Capture.thumb.PNG.509da0ab6ba83638851a5b346745a2d3.PNG

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On 9/20/2021 at 7:48 AM, Metallic said:

I seem to remember the right click/hold/drag/drop was the only way to move toolpaths until recently.

I've been right click/copy/paste  or right click/cut/paste since the first release of X

I am WAY too fat fingered for drag/drop

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1 hour ago, Metallic said:

Is there a way yet to dock the toolpath manager, and the other managers OUTSIDE of your main mastercam window? Say I want to have a huge graphics window and I want to "mount" my managers on my other monitor somewhere so I can expand it in size and open it up a bit more?

"Is there a way yet to dock the toolpath manager, and the other managers OUTSIDE of your main mastercam window?"

No, the mfc framework docking support only applies inside the window.

 

This kind of behavior is possible inside the windows api, but you would need a custom programming solution to accomplish this..

This github project creates 3 child windows that follow a parent window around and act as buttons, the concept is different but the principle and functions used are the same.

https://github.com/xx4g/twlekezexe

I am translating the project to c#, so you will be able to emulate this in mastercam 2022 without mods, eventually

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//in c++ something like this, offset would be how much the window sticks out to the left, or right..
//from winexe.cpp //copyright 2021(c) byte
/*Update a Button Windows Positions*/
void UpdateWindowPos(HWND hWndParent, HWND hWndChild, int offset)
{
	if (hWndParent)
	{
		if (hWndChild)
		{
			RECT lPRect;
			GetWindowRect(hWndParent, &lPRect);
			lPRect.left = lPRect.right - 25 - offset;
			lPRect.right = 25;
			lPRect.bottom = 25;
			MoveWindow(hWndChild, lPRect.left, lPRect.top, lPRect.right, lPRect.bottom, TRUE);
			UpdateWindow(hWndChild);
		}
	}
}

 

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22 hours ago, Metallic said:

 

I personally kinda like the toolpath manager and in fact, I am not even sure what they could do to make it more intuitive. I am sure there are many things but I am not a UX designer so I dunno. It packs a lot of functionality into that little strip of pixels!

I think that explains one aspect of my issue with it.  Too much information in that window.  Too many things going on makes my brain chaotic, lol.  

 

I don't remember exactly, as it's been a long time since I've used it, but this is how it was in Esprit.  This was your "features manager" which showed chain and toolpath association.

feats.jpg.55e751d69306fc820c2df627593b6353.jpg

 

Then you had this window, for when you wanted to re-order your operations, or just view them by toolchange.

ops.jpg.9d4356abee80270507af552c9b42db00.jpg

 

I preferred it, but that doesn't mean it's better.  Most people here seem to be happy with the toolpath manager, so perhaps I just need to adjust my way of doing things!!

 

 

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  • 3 months later...
On 9/21/2021 at 9:26 AM, JB7280 said:

I think that explains one aspect of my issue with it.  Too much information in that window.  Too many things going on makes my brain chaotic, lol.  

 

I don't remember exactly, as it's been a long time since I've used it, but this is how it was in Esprit.  This was your "features manager" which showed chain and toolpath association.

feats.jpg.55e751d69306fc820c2df627593b6353.jpg

 

Then you had this window, for when you wanted to re-order your operations, or just view them by toolchange.

ops.jpg.9d4356abee80270507af552c9b42db00.jpg

 

I preferred it, but that doesn't mean it's better.  Most people here seem to be happy with the toolpath manager, so perhaps I just need to adjust my way of doing things!!

 

 

Look at the Toolpath Display Options.

You can disable most of the information displayed, to simplify the Display of the Operations inside the tree. Depending on the type of work you do, you can change the display to suit your tastes.

Also, depending on your visual preferences, you can edit the font style and size. You can also change the background color, if you prefer the function panel to display the operations against a different background color. (I prefer a light gray color.)

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On 12/24/2021 at 10:25 AM, Colin Gilchrist said:

Look at the Toolpath Display Options.

You can disable most of the information displayed, to simplify the Display of the Operations inside the tree. Depending on the type of work you do, you can change the display to suit your tastes.

Also, depending on your visual preferences, you can edit the font style and size. You can also change the background color, if you prefer the function panel to display the operations against a different background color. (I prefer a light gray color.)

I too, use a light grey background.  I've also found that it's easier for my eyes to read the Century Gothic font.  

 

tpm.jpg.19572f71d8df9d357a637185ae61d423.jpg

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On 9/21/2021 at 6:56 PM, JB7280 said:

I think that explains one aspect of my issue with it.  Too much information in that window.  Too many things going on makes my brain chaotic, lol.  

 

I don't remember exactly, as it's been a long time since I've used it, but this is how it was in Esprit.  This was your "features manager" which showed chain and toolpath association.

feats.jpg.55e751d69306fc820c2df627593b6353.jpg

 

Then you had this window, for when you wanted to re-order your operations, or just view them by toolchange.

ops.jpg.9d4356abee80270507af552c9b42db00.jpg

 

I preferred it, but that doesn't mean it's better.  Most people here seem to be happy with the toolpath manager, so perhaps I just need to adjust my way of doing things!!

 

 

Esprit toolpath manager is just opposite to MC toolpath manager.

In Esprit toolpath manager, the work flow goes like this:

WCS ->Chain feature->Free form feature (check surfaces) -> Toolpath

With this workflow Esprit has the following advantage over Mastercam:

 1. Need to select check & machined surfaces only once in "Free form feature" and all the toolpaths can be added to that. Suppose if there are 100s of toolpath and if there is a design change, then we need to change the check and machine surfaces only once at the FFF & not at the every toolpath.

2. Operation sequence manager is seperate from Tool manager. The sequence "we see" or arranged is the the operation sequence. In MC, it is not obvious to know the sequence by just looking at it, unless we open the toolpath and check which stock or previous operation is connected.

Now Mastercam has the following advantage with its toolpath manager & workflow:

1. We can choose any stock or any in-process stock for any operation/toolpath. This a very big flexibility. In Esprit, the in-process stock flows automatically as per the sequence in Operation manager and if you want to use different stock for any particular operation, then you need to export the stock as STL and import & select in FFF (as you know there will be no associativity in this case). This also allow us carry out independent study on certain toolpath, by copying & working on it, without affecting other toolpath.

2. The toolpath groups allows us to organise the way we want and we can change group / common properties.

3. The Transform toolpaths have associativity with its parent toolpath! Sounds like a simple thing? But it's not the case with Esprit. If anything changes in the parent toolpath, we need to delete all the transform toolpaths and then we need to recreate the transform toolpaths again!

MC toolpath manager more functionality and flexibility.

If MC has a sequence manager (for milling) and in which if we can see the sequence by arrows or list, then it would be great!

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On 9/20/2021 at 6:57 AM, Colin Gilchrist said:

(The important part of that sequence is "selecting something else" (puts the focus on a different Operation), then "[LMB] selecting the actual Target Operation". This ensures that I've "deselected any previously active selection" [clicking on a different op], and made sure that there aren't "other selected Ops" which I wasn't aware of. It is super easy to accidentally select a "range of ops", without being aware of that happening, if you attempt to use the [RMB] to select the Operation on which you are attempting to perform an action. I always "left-click, release, then right-click", in order to ensure proper selection...)

i have run into this and have somewhat retrained myself to "click away" as you describe. Still catches me if I try to go to fast. I am not sure if it's a click recognition glitch in MC or a windows click issue, but I believe it to be an issue that could be corrected. I noticed after an operation move there can be a remaining OP selected, but not selected. Doing the click away or just select something else then going back activates it correctly but the selected display does not always mean that the OP is active.

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