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C-axis rotation cut with milling head at an angle in mill-turn - how?


Hydrazine
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Hi folks,

We have a new Integrex i200H-ST with the SmoothAI control.  I have a part that is basically a cylinder with a .250 wide chamfer on the end, and on that .250 wide flat I need to put a full radius 3mm wide groove.  This is being done in the sub spindle.

I am the CAM guy, not the machine operator (I have no experience with Mazatrol).  So what we would like to do is kick the head to B+135, have it enter the cut and then the milling head stays still and the C axis rotates to cut the groove, then the milling head exits the cut.  The programmer at the machine is saying Mazatrol can't do this... which seems unusual to me as it seems like a pretty basic operation.  Anyway, I can't seem to get this toolpath programmed in CAM either.

I am using MCAM 2021 and I have 5-axis, mill, lathe, and mill-turn.  I tried to do it in lathe with a contour and C-axis rotation.  This works if the tool is straight-on to the part, colinear with the spindle axis.  If I create a plane that is offset 45-degrees to get the tool coming in the right angle, then it no longer rotates about the C-axis and instead wants to move the head to do to the whole cut.

 

I also tried to do it in mill-turn with a contour using plane rotation.  This also makes the tool move instead of using the C-axis.  I can change it from plane rotation to c-axis but, again, it only works if the tool is straight-on to the spindle centerline.

 

And if I try to do it in 5-axis, again it doesn't rotate the C-axis and instead moves the tool/head to do the cut.

 

Can someone tell me what the correct tool path would be to achieve this?  And is it do-able in MasterCAM lathe or is this a mill-turn operation?

 

And if there are any Mazak guys out there I would LOVE to hear how to do this at the machine.  I called Mazak Apps and they said it should be possible but werent sure how to do it... the operator swears up and down this is not possible to do on the machine.  

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Thanks for the reply.

I don't think this would even be a 5-axis toolpath in Mazak world... I just want to kick the head to B+135, go to the part centerline and then feed in along the axis of the tool until I am in the part, then rotate the C axis 360 degrees, then retract the head along the cutting tool axis back the way I came in.

It seems like a really fundamental operation that Mazatrol should be able to do.  

 

In MasterCAM, I will look at Morph but not sure what the curves would be... I only have one contour on the part and I want the tool center point to follow it using a C-axis rotation... no movement of the cutting tool as the C-axis is rotating (other than spinning of course).

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Yes doable in Mastercam, but without a sample file to see what your seeing hard for me to tell you what is the best toolpath.

Locking a 5 Axis Toolpath to a 4 axis output should achieve what you are after pretty easily. They way you are describing it not sure if Contour and Axis sub would do it. If you are trying that method make sure you use the correct process. You will need to define the roll diameter you are using. Might look to the Topic I just posted help CNCZack on 4 axis part for a mill. Sound like that might be close to what you are doing.

Mazatrol for something like this would be tricky, but yes agree doable. Not the best use of the machine, but to each their own.

Side note a customer and I discovered a major flaw in the Smooth Control recently and will want to make sure if you are using G61.2 RXX.XXX for your Multi Axis toolpaths you don't use Zero or 100% on the feedrate override. G61.1 PXX was giving a customer of ours not the smooth motion we needed.

Since you have the MT Environment you will want to reach out to your reseller and get the latest one for this series machine I helped work on that supports G68.2. The guys in the post department did an awesome job getting it all implemented and working correctly. Be aware in EIA G68 only support on center work offsets and programming from there. Any off center programming or workoffset for milling must use G68.2 or G68.3. Big change in the smooth control verses the Matrix and earlier where G68 did support off center work offsets and programming.

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Ok, so I attached a step file showing the groove I am trying to make.

As for why I don't turn it, well I have 3mm ball endmills in stock but I don't have a grooving tool to cut this in stock.

You can see the groove has an undercut so I need to come in at that angle with a 3mm ball mill to get my feature made.  

 

Thanks for any suggestions.  

Groove.stp

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2 hours ago, Hydrazine said:

Ok, so I attached a step file showing the groove I am trying to make.

As for why I don't turn it, well I have 3mm ball endmills in stock but I don't have a grooving tool to cut this in stock.

You can see the groove has an undercut so I need to come in at that angle with a 3mm ball mill to get my feature made.  

 

Thanks for any suggestions.  

Groove.stp

Sorry I want to see a Mastercam file with some sweat equality in it. You have almost $50k of Mastercam Software with what you mentioned in this topic so you should have no problem throwing up a Mastercam file, Yes I can open MT files since I am a direct Partner with CNC Software.

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On 3/2/2022 at 2:06 PM, Hydrazine said:

 

I also tried to do it in mill-turn with a contour using plane rotation.  This also makes the tool move instead of using the C-axis.  I can change it from plane rotation to c-axis but, again, it only works if the tool is straight-on to the spindle centerline.

 

My apologies if this is a silly question but when you say it makes the tool move and not the c axis are you confirming that with the post or just going off the display when ran through backplot? 

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2 hours ago, Greg Williams said:

Mastercam and the machine can do that. I doubt anyone will help much from a step file. Its a bad look

I will say don't do it in MT and expect the same results with Lathe/Mill. Lathe/Mill makes something so simple that. Where as with MT better be ready to pull some teeth to achieve the same results.

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5 hours ago, BGOLDEN2005 said:

I am glad to hear you got it working which program did you use is it master cam

I’m evaluating fusion 360 and it would help in making a decision to know if you got it done in master Cam 

please consider and advise

This can easily be done in Mastercam. Problem is we get people here who are not legal users of the software. By supplying a Mastercam file it goes a long way to establish a person is legally using the software. Like mentioned just a step file is a huge red flag. 

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On 3/4/2022 at 11:49 PM, crazy^millman said:

This can easily be done in Mastercam. Problem is we get people here who are not legal users of the software. By supplying a Mastercam file it goes a long way to establish a person is legally using the software. Like mentioned just a step file is a huge red flag. 

How is that your problem? 

I doubt there are too many people pirating MasterCAM to run parts on one of their 4 Integrex's... and even if there are, why are some users here making themselves the self-appointed hall pass monitors on this topic?

All you accomplished is solidifying my perception that the MasterCAM community isn't very helpful, and giving me a negative impression of you and the business you're trying to peddle on here.

Alternate options for why people don't post MasterCAM files would be that company policy forbids it, or the customer name/part number is all over their file, or I am sure other reasons.  

On 3/4/2022 at 6:13 PM, BGOLDEN2005 said:

I am glad to hear you got it working which program did you use is it master cam

I’m evaluating fusion 360 and it would help in making a decision to know if you got it done in master Cam 

please consider and advise

Yes I got it working in MasterCAM but if you are choosing between it and Fusion, then you should choose Fusion.  The cost difference is *massive* and the Fusion community is huge and helpful and the answer isn't always "contact your reseller" when people don't know the correct solution.

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15 minutes ago, Hydrazine said:

All you accomplished is solidifying my perception that the MasterCAM community isn't very helpful, and giving me a negative impression of you and the business you're trying to peddle on here.

You couldn't be more wrong.....Ron provides more help here then almost anyone. I can personally say he has taken the time to review my files and provide sample files to learn from. If he wasn't on here along with a few others I likely wouldn't visit daily as I find that I am learning from their help. 

Everyone here should be using legitimate versions of the software, providing a  Mastercam file assures this. If you can't share the file for what ever reason (Itar, company policy) then create a generic part with a similar feature. 

I wish you nothing but good fortune but in this case you are off base.

 

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1 hour ago, Hydrazine said:

All you accomplished is solidifying my perception that the MasterCAM community isn't very helpful, and giving me a negative impression of you and the business you're trying to peddle on here.

Alternate options for why people don't post MasterCAM files would be that company policy forbids it, or the customer name/part number is all over their file, or I am sure other reasons.  

If you can post a step file, then you can post a mastercam file.

 

1 hour ago, Hydrazine said:

How is that your problem? 

I doubt there are too many people pirating MasterCAM to run parts on one of their 4 Integrex's... and even if there are, why are some users here making themselves the self-appointed hall pass monitors on this topic?

It's not his problem. He just chooses to help people who aren't bootlegging the software.  Ron is one of the most helpful people on the forum.  If you don't want his help and just choose to get defensive when he asks for some insurance that you're using a legit version of the software, then that's your loss.

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7 hours ago, Hydrazine said:

How is that your problem?

Because it undercuts my way of earning a living. We all have our perception of how this world works. Yours comes with baggage and preference towards a certain direction. With that you put up a loaded question and presented things that came across like 100s of others who were not legal. Not 1 or 2 people, but hundreds. Sorry if you are the exception to the same type of postings that so many have done and choose to follow that raised red flags. It was just my perception of the way you started and carried yourself through this thread it was being perceived that way by others. You could have easily had the tool and holder defined in a Mastercam file using that .step example. You choose not to and had you then we wouldn't be having this conversation.

I am too old to change my life experiences and sorry you feel offended. You have made up your mind with limited information. You will keep down this same path destroying every chance you get for help. You know everything and someone like myself who has been doing it for 35 years can't possible know anything that could help you. I also gave the correct solution you just choose to be arrogant and not read what I posted up.

Guys thanks for the words, but like so many who know way more than any of us and took 2 weeks of Fusion training online. This person can program any machine in the world for any part with any tolerance out of and material so we are irrelevant.

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