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Memory Lane


Roger
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11 hours ago, cncappsjames said:

My co-worker and I looked at a project several years ago. We both agreed on a cycle time window. Customer had a time study from a competitor that was 25% lower than our time study so the sales guy asked us to take a look at it so we did. We revised our number and figured out a few ways to shave some time with form tools. We dropped 5%. But we said not a second less. So we told the sales guy to advise the customer to put in putative damages clause because there was no way in hell that part was going to be made in that other AE's estimation. They did do that but they went after the sexy quote instead of the honest one. 

End result; the AE that wanted to be the hero got fired. He was off by roughly the amount we estimated. Basically the customer got the machine for the builder's cost and because they bid the job based on that AE's time study time they lose money. Every. Single. Part. 😮

They never once asked why we thought the cycle time would be what we thought. I'll tell you what, when we saw that cycle time we assumed we f***ed up, and took an even deeper dive on it the 2nd time and we found 5% savings. Lost the sale but maintained our integrity and didn't cost our company money.

Yes then that MTB brought in a company to make that part without knowing that all that had gone down. Then one Year after the company had been working on the project did the time study get shared and the penalty associated to not making that time study. Then the cheap customer who had been allowed to prove out the project against what was going to an MTB prove out got all the facts showed about their own internal sabotage going on since it was done outside and not inside. Then the gloves come off and there was going ot be about $50k worth of tools thrown at the time since the clause was time not Cost per part to make that insane time happen. Then the end customer lost the project. Years later that is still not settled and one company is still looking to collect money on their machines that have been printing money for free the last few years and the company that programmed them is still looking for $XX,XXX money owed on the project.

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2 hours ago, GoetzInd said:

Meh, AI is replacing all you guys soon anyway....😋

 

Sat in a meeting with one customer and that was his exact words as they were asking for our help. He mentioned a group that was on the cusp of making AI that could program any part for any machine. I asked him was it a certain group?  He looked at me shocked I even knew they were doing it. He said yes and informed him they interviewed me about helping their product along. After 10 questions they realized that I was not going to be much help. Not because I was unwilling to help, but because the software was unable to do what I was asking in 10 questions. Simple part that was a flat plate with 4 holes it could handle that. Complex Multi Axis setup on a Tombstone or in a self centering vice forgot about it. He said well in 5 years you will not be needed and obsolete. That was 7 years ago and still doing what I do. That manager is not longer working for that company not sure where he wound up, but I am sure it somewhere that reality still has not caught up to the company.

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1 hour ago, crazy^millman said:

Yes then that MTB brought in a company to make that part without knowing that all that had gone down. Then one Year after the company had been working on the project did the time study get shared and the penalty associated to not making that time study. Then the cheap customer who had been allowed to prove out the project against what was going to an MTB prove out got all the facts showed about their own internal sabotage going on since it was done outside and not inside. Then the gloves come off and there was going ot be about $50k worth of tools thrown at the time since the clause was time not Cost per part to make that insane time happen. Then the end customer lost the project. Years later that is still not settled and one company is still looking to collect money on their machines that have been printing money for free the last few years and the company that programmed them is still looking for $XX,XXX money owed on the project.

sounds like a jobs program for unemployed lawyers  :whistle:

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I sat in on a conference call where a software vendor said that we could eliminate our nc programmers. Before I could help myself I snorted out a laugh and got dirty looks. They bought the software

The vendor never got the software to work with our parts even though they had the author working on site.

Don't know about the vendor but my company is no longer in business.

Correction. Looks like auto desk bought the vendor. 

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4 hours ago, crazy^millman said:

Yes then all those MBA's stacked up to the ceiling showed their true worth... a steaming pile of bovine excrement.

Free fiss.

:coffee:

2 hours ago, gcode said:

sounds like a jobs program for unemployed lawyers  :whistle:

^^^^^

This times eleventy bazillion.

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Haha they have it all backwards. We don't need AI to replace us lowly programmers/AE's.......

We need to MERGE with it to create a race of super programmers so that our AI selves can replace all of those middle and upper management, as well as all of the workers on the floor with robots connected to our AI selves so WE ALONE control the manufacturing of the world....MUHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA

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8 hours ago, GoetzInd said:

Meh, AI is replacing all you guys soon anyway....😋

 

Hahahaha - yes, as Klaus Schwab said, "we can't all be robot polishers".....

4 hours ago, mowens said:

IDon't know about the vendor but my company is no longer in business.

Correction. Looks like auto desk bought the vendor. 

If AD bought them, they're as good as history..... :hrhr:

 

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6 hours ago, cncappsjames said:

They told us STEP NC was gonna make CAM programmers a thing of the past too. The engineer was going to do everything. And here we are. 

Dude! we were just chatting about .step nc here last week! Oldie but a goodie. 

Hey, I'm all for the latest technology. And honestly, if CAM programming went away tomorrow I'm kinda ready to move on to something else. But man, if AI does take over some of the stuff that I've been a part of in the past, it has permeated every aspect of our lives. 

Mike 

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On 4/19/2022 at 10:00 PM, JParis said:

Well why not?  A 6 year old can   

I know we all laughed....and laughed.....but the reality is I found it quite offensive TBH. There's a ton of things that can and do go wrong in our game, and thinking them all through to ensure REPEATED good parts only comes with experience. Not a mouse click....

Oh, and IBTL :cheers:

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On 4/21/2022 at 3:06 PM, crazy^millman said:

Colleges pass out Engineering Degrees all the time and many of the engineers have never touched a machine in their life, but are designing parts to be made by machines calling out stupid tolerances and designing features that turn a $5 part in a $100k part with their lack of knowledge about what is really takes to manufacture parts. Someone tries to explain to them the concepts and principles behind why certain things they have done or called out add costs to manufacture it and it is almost immediately dismissed because we don't have Papers on the wall showing we were able to learn in an classroom verses learning how to do it in real life.

 

This is the post that finally gets me to stop lurking and actually comment. 

 

As I read this, I was reminded of the time when I was an apprentice tool and die maker.  The company I worked for was, on top of the apprenticeship, also sending me to tech. school for programming and mechatronics in the evening.  One evening I was at school and we were working on a project, if you can call it that, where had to take a piece of 1018 square stock, and file the edge cut by the bandsaw until it was flat and square to the sides.  A teacher, who wasn't even teaching this class, decided to share his expertise on filing with us.  He proceeded to show the class how to "saw horse" file.

I told him that my apprenticeship instructor told me that saw horse filing is an improper technique and he took me to his office which was near the machining area and actually took his engineering degree off the wall and shoved it in my face yelling at me.  Saying that he graduated top of his class with honors and that he wasn't going to be disrespected by some kid he was just trying to "help out".  I was so dumbfounded by the situation I didn't even know what to say, so I just turned and walked out of his office.

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1 hour ago, Sarlic said:

I told him that my apprenticeship instructor told me that saw horse filing is an improper technique and he took me to his office which was near the machining area and actually took his engineering degree off the wall and shoved it in my face yelling at me.

 

I took machine shop classes back in the 80's.  They didn't focus on filing.  Is that really part of todays apprenticeships?

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3 minutes ago, #Rekd™ said:

It should be IMHO. 

Out of curiosity, Why? 

Most of today's machining doesn't even require hand deburring. 

Hand working parts is definitely an art so don't get me wrong, but try to find someone who even want's to do it these days. 

If I bring a part to QC that needs to be filed in any way I would probably be reprimanded.  :D 

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If I have to file something, I've failed somewhere. I mean unless I'm just filing some sawn stock so the saw burr doesn't influence my probing cycle... then yeah, I'll file or deburr. Otherwise the machine does all the work. the better a part looks the less scrutiny it gets. Don't get me wrong, I always want to make a good part, I just don't want to draw any unnecessary attention to my stuff.

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20 minutes ago, neurosis said:

Out of curiosity, Why? 

Building skills, manual dexterity. I had a guy retire here after nearly 40 years, most skilled guy I ever met. He never used a computer, calculator etc. All designs and drawings done on paper. Everything fully shaded (cross sections with hatches) etc. He had hands like a jeweler. He would drill holes down to 0.005" (HSS drills) by hand. His work in general was pristine. 

Not all jobs are done on CNC equipment in my field. 

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At Dunwoody in the 90's we hand filed our first project to shape after roughing it out on the bandsaw, after welding our bandsaw blade and laying out the project with Dychem and hand scribing.  I think it teaches a lot; you learn an instinctive understanding of the material properties etc., and an appreciation for the more efficient modern methods.  Plus if you ever have to fall back on it, you have it.

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3 hours ago, neurosis said:

I took machine shop classes back in the 80's.  They didn't focus on filing.  Is that really part of todays apprenticeships?

The class at the tech. school was Hand Tool Operations, the most useless class I have ever taken.  The apprenticeship however wasn't just for machining, it was a tool and die apprenticeship.  My first three months I didn't touch a machine manual or CNC with the exception of a bandsaw to cut my stock, and I think it's exactly how the apprenticeship should've been.  Those three months weren't about teaching me anything, it was to show our instructor who we were as students.  We were a team of six apprentices, not because they needed six, but because they never expected all of us to make it.  The first task we were given was to use a hacksaw and cut shims out of 1080 hot rolled C-channel.  Each shim had to be 2mm thick +/-0.5mm.  We had to continue cutting shims until we had 3 that were within spec.  It served no purpose other than demonstrating who really wanted it.  Who was determined and who had a good work ethic.

 

The company is headquartered in Germany and as far as I know that plant still teaches their apprentices the same way, and I had heard from many of the Germans at that plant, that the apprenticeship in Germany was more difficult and even included learning how to hand scrape machine ways.

9 minutes ago, Matthew Hajicek - Singularity said:

At Dunwoody in the 90's we hand filed our first project to shape after roughing it out on the bandsaw, after welding our bandsaw blade and laying out the project with Dychem and hand scribing.  I think it teaches a lot; you learn an instinctive understanding of the material properties etc., and an appreciation for the more efficient modern methods.  Plus if you ever have to fall back on it, you have it.

I apprenticed in 2011, I didn't have to weld my own blade, but when I was finally allowed to use the lathe I had to grind my own tools first.

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38 minutes ago, Sarlic said:

I apprenticed in 2011, I didn't have to weld my own blade, but when I was finally allowed to use the lathe I had to grind my own tools first.

Yup, did that too, a set of about six or seven different geometries.  One of the other students couldn't do it, so I made an extra set and sold it to him, with knowledge of the instructor so he didn't get credit.  He dropped out a couple weeks later.

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4 hours ago, Sarlic said:

The class at the tech. school was Hand Tool Operations, the most useless class I have ever taken.  The apprenticeship however wasn't just for machining, it was a tool and die apprenticeship.  My first three months I didn't touch a machine manual or CNC with the exception of a bandsaw to cut my stock, and I think it's exactly how the apprenticeship should've been.  Those three months weren't about teaching me anything, it was to show our instructor who we were as students.  We were a team of six apprentices, not because they needed six, but because they never expected all of us to make it.  The first task we were given was to use a hacksaw and cut shims out of 1080 hot rolled C-channel.  Each shim had to be 2mm thick +/-0.5mm.  We had to continue cutting shims until we had 3 that were within spec.  It served no purpose other than demonstrating who really wanted it.  Who was determined and who had a good work ethic.

 

The company is headquartered in Germany and as far as I know that plant still teaches their apprentices the same way, and I had heard from many of the Germans at that plant, that the apprenticeship in Germany was more difficult and even included learning how to hand scrape machine ways.

I don't want to be too critical of something that I don't understand, so I'll refrain.   Back in the early 2000's we housed an apprenticeship in our shop. It was only a 6 month apprenticeship but it was all manual machining.   We never had anyone hack saw anything or file anything.

Our shop was majority CNC at the time but we felt that people would get a better education starting from the roots of machining.  If you passed we would recommend you to other shops.  

Not once did filing ever come up. 

To Rekd,  those niche abilities are great to have.  I don't mean to criticize. 

 

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I started my college machining classes 43 years ago.....(I'm an OLD FART!)  Back then, CNC's where for the most part (NEW) to the machining trade.  We had a paper punch knee mill.  You had to program by hand, type in the code on a teletype machine, feed the mill the program, and run it.  We also had to learn to read the tape..  I don't know why on that though.  I digress..

Back to the filing, etc.  The first part of the class was to cut a piece of material, FILE all sides, square & parallel, and to length.  After that, you scraped it flat top & bottom using the file end as a scraper.  After that, it was layout of holes that you drilled, tapped, reamed, etc.  Again, having to keep to the print, and the tolerance specified on the print.  We also learned how to sharpen a drill bit by hand, (Both, large (1"), and small).  Welding Bandsaw blades together.  All of our lathe tools where HSS ground by hand.  (That was also graded).

This was a two year course, and was considered to be the best machining course west of the Mississippi river.  Besides the machining course, you had to take Welding, (Oxyacetylene, Brazing, and Arc.), Blueprint Reading for machinists, Drafting, and Math. (Trigonometry, Algebra, and Geometry.  All the math taught by the machinist instructor).

The machining part covered, Lathes, (Basic turning, Threading, Cutting angles using the compound, Taper attachment, and Off setting the tail stock, etc.  Also had to memorize all the parts of the lathe, i.e. Chuck, Saddle, Compound, Tail Stock, etc...)  Mills, Grinders, (Surface grinder, Cylindrical grinder, and I.D./O.D. grinder), Shaper machine, Saws, ETC..

Besides ALL OF THE ABOVE, There was Greensand Casting, Metallurgy, and Heat Treating. 

IMHO, I think ever machinist out there should start with manual machining before getting into CNC's...

As an example of this:  When I was taking my Mastercam courses, after many, many years as a manual machinist,  There was a women in the course, (Sent there by her employer), that ask the question, "Why can't you use a drill bit to mill a slot?"

I'll finish with that.  Good Day!

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