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Was there ever a reasonable post for Hitachi Y axis lathes?


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Years ago, I came to the conclusion that this just doesn't exist for Seicos 3 but figured I might ask here.  Another shop was messing with this drama and reseller just kept sending posts like "oh, try this"...."nope".....  I am at a point of splicing code because I can't get reasonable output for fanuc stuff (hitachi doesn't have fanuc control).  I mean, if I knew one was out there that was even 90% close, I could probably tune it up, but so far it seems the live tool stuff just makes a mess.  

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As a "stock" post....probably not. As I recall, those machines are Yasnac based....Fanuc like with several small differences.

Have people paid to have one worked in for what they need, yup.

The reality, with all that goes into it, you're going to have to either pay for someone to come out and massage a post OR you're going to have a to purchase a post for that control.

 

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Yes programmed one and it ran great 1998 model if I recall. Was a custom post not a generic, but I could configure MPLMASTER to program one edit free with no problem. I did that for some Hwacheon machines about 6-7 years ago. Everything from Single Turret Single Spindle with Y axis to Dual Turrets and Spindle with Y axis. Went to Malaysia to help prove out and get programs running on them.

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Just now, Newbeeee™ said:

Hicel 23....It's just a single spindle CY with the majority of code the same as a Fanuc?

It is my understanding this machine has a Hitachi control.  All boards just say "Seiki" or "seicos" on them.  Never worked with a Yasnak, so that could be the confusion if the language is the same.  

 

machine is a 23B, with sub, Y, ejector, catcher, 

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Just now, crazy^millman said:

Yes programmed one and it ran great 1998 model if I recall. Was a custom post not a generic, but I could configure MPLMASTER to program one edit free with no problem. I did that for some Hwacheon machines about 6-7 years ago. Everything from Single Turret Single Spindle with Y axis to Dual Turrets and Spindle with Y axis. Went to Malaysia to help prove out and get programs running on them.

I am not new to post editing, but has been quite a while.  As I understand it, our MC rep said they did not have an exact post for the machine, and wanted to build one.  I guess I find that hard to believe, and questioning if that is a sales tactic.  I think if I could get close, I could tune it in.  

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2 minutes ago, honeybunches said:

I think if I could get close, I could tune it in.  

I've always found paying a professional to build posts is much more cost effective than 

doing it myself. Of course the fact that I'm not very good at it may have something to do with it 

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Just now, honeybunches said:

I am not new to post editing, but has been quite a while.  As I understand it, our MC rep said they did not have an exact post for the machine, and wanted to build one.  I guess I find that hard to believe, and questioning if that is a sales tactic.  I think if I could get close, I could tune it in.  

Why is that hard to believe about the post? Reach out to all the other CAM Software companies and see how many have a post for this machine. There are 1000's of machines and controls out there and sorry to burst your bubble, but this was not a common machine. Your machine is the 2nd machine I have ever even heard of with a Y axis. I have been in 1000's of shops and this is the 2nd I have ever heard of, but CNC Software or any CAM company is suppose to have a fully dialed in a working post for it? Reach out to Vericut and ask them do they have a fully dialed in CAV for it? NCSIMUL? Reach out and get back to how many companies carry something for this relic. They went out of business how many years ago? Sorry my a-hole hat comes with a comment like that it makes you sound really entitled.

They went out of business 20 years ago.

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2002/09/12/business/mori-seiki-to-take-over-hitachi-seiki/

  • Sep 12, 2002

Major machine-tool maker Mori Seiki Co. said Wednesday it has signed an agreement in which a subsidiary will take over the assets and accept the engineers of failed machine-tool maker Hitachi Seiki Co.

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56 minutes ago, crazy^millman said:

Why is that hard to believe about the post? Reach out to all the other CAM Software companies and see how many have a post for this machine. There are 1000's of machines and controls out there and sorry to burst your bubble, but this was not a common machine. Your machine is the 2nd machine I have ever even heard of with a Y axis. I have been in 1000's of shops and this is the 2nd I have ever heard of, but CNC Software or any CAM company is suppose to have a fully dialed in a working post for it? Reach out to Vericut and ask them do they have a fully dialed in CAV for it? NCSIMUL? Reach out and get back to how many companies carry something for this relic. They went out of business how many years ago? Sorry my a-hole hat comes with a comment like that it makes you sound really entitled.

They went out of business 20 years ago.

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2002/09/12/business/mori-seiki-to-take-over-hitachi-seiki/

  • Sep 12, 2002

Major machine-tool maker Mori Seiki Co. said Wednesday it has signed an agreement in which a subsidiary will take over the assets and accept the engineers of failed machine-tool maker Hitachi Seiki Co.

It does seem that the Y and control mfg may in fact be more rare than assumed.  Thus the reason for post complications.  I guess that is why I was reaching out to see if anyone else has encountered them.  Doesn't seem like it.  

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I've setup the Generic Fanuc 4X MT_Lathe Post, and/or MPLMaster, to fit a variety of custom machine and control configurations. M-Codes for machine mode activation, Axial and Radial Live Tool Canned Cycles, Pick-Off/Cut-Off to support all of the Part Handling code between Main and Sub Spindles, Part Flip, or Tailstock operation. Mori Seiki's, Hwacheons, Haas, Okuma, Mazak, Etc.

I doubt there is anyone with a personal copy of a Post they have customized for this particular machine/control combination, who has: #1, seen this thread, and #2, is willing to share their work, but I wouldn't be surprised if either Postability, or In-House Solutions, has a post "off the shelf", which would support the basic options of your control.

When I was working at CNC Software back in 2013, In-House Solutions was celebrating their "100,000th Paid Post Processor", so considering we're about 10-years on, I'd guess you could probably double that number. (*NOTE: I do not speak for, nor represent, CNC Software, In-House Solutions, or Phillips Corporation in making these comments, for which I'm solely responsible for here.)

If you're interested in taking a stab at it yourself, check out my YouTube Channel in my signature. I've uploaded my Basic Mill Post Class (MP 101), 5X Post Class (MP 301), and the start of my Lathe Post Class (MP 201). This reminds me that I should finish uploading those videos...

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39 minutes ago, Colin Gilchrist said:

I've setup the Generic Fanuc 4X MT_Lathe Post, and/or MPLMaster, to fit a variety of custom machine and control configurations. M-Codes for machine mode activation, Axial and Radial Live Tool Canned Cycles, Pick-Off/Cut-Off to support all of the Part Handling code between Main and Sub Spindles, Part Flip, or Tailstock operation. Mori Seiki's, Hwacheons, Haas, Okuma, Mazak, Etc.

I doubt there is anyone with a personal copy of a Post they have customized for this particular machine/control combination, who has: #1, seen this thread, and #2, is willing to share their work, but I wouldn't be surprised if either Postability, or In-House Solutions, has a post "off the shelf", which would support the basic options of your control.

When I was working at CNC Software back in 2013, In-House Solutions was celebrating their "100,000th Paid Post Processor", so considering we're about 10-years on, I'd guess you could probably double that number. (*NOTE: I do not speak for, nor represent, CNC Software, In-House Solutions, or Phillips Corporation in making these comments, for which I'm solely responsible for here.)

If you're interested in taking a stab at it yourself, check out my YouTube Channel in my signature. I've uploaded my Basic Mill Post Class (MP 101), 5X Post Class (MP 301), and the start of my Lathe Post Class (MP 201). This reminds me that I should finish uploading those videos...

Thank you and I do agree that I might need to run this up the chain a bit to maybe contact other vendors as I can certainly understand not having a "perfect" post, but close would be my hope.  

I am going to go absorb some of your vids to maybe refresh myself there.  At least for me, I have found huge benefit in being able to edit and tune a post to my liking.  I think I might consider doing my own post for this odd ball machine as an educational piece, but at the moment I am not sure if I start with MPLmaster, Hitachi 2x, or what.  I will absorb and think on this.  It's not urgent, but something I want to get solved.  I simply hate at-machine edits and patchwork programs.  

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8 hours ago, honeybunches said:

IAs I understand it, our MC rep said they did not have an exact post for the machine, and wanted to build one.  I guess I find that hard to believe, and questioning if that is a sales tactic.

There are no "sales tactics" for post processors on machines THAT OLD. Face it, the number of Hitachi Seki machines still in service dwindles every year. I haven't seen one running for a couple years now.

If there was a post at your dealer, chances are it is going to be a V8/V9 era post in which case it's going to need quite a bit of work anyway. 

The Hitachi machines I've looked under the hood on had FANUC drives. Controls all said Seicos. Program formats were close enough to FANUC I would start with an MPMaster post. 

 

Get your wallet out or get to work on a new one seems to be your two most viable options. 

JM2CFWIW YMMV 

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1 hour ago, cncappsjames said:

There are no "sales tactics" for post processors on machines THAT OLD. Face it, the number of Hitachi Seki machines still in service dwindles every year. I haven't seen one running for a couple years now.

If there was a post at your dealer, chances are it is going to be a V8/V9 era post in which case it's going to need quite a bit of work anyway. 

The Hitachi machines I've looked under the hood on had FANUC drives. Controls all said Seicos. Program formats were close enough to FANUC I would start with an MPMaster post. 

 

Get your wallet out or get to work on a new one seems to be your two most viable options. 

JM2CFWIW YMMV 

You are correct that codes are extremely close to Fanuc.  This machine runs NEC axis cards and Mitsubishi drives and motors.  Obviously we are on borrowed time with the whole thing anyway, but if you have priced a twin spindle, Y axis parts maker lately, we at least want to try here.  

When you say MPMaster, do you mean the MPLMaster?  

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19 hours ago, honeybunches said:

Obviously we are on borrowed time with the whole thing anyway, but if you have priced a twin spindle, Y axis parts maker lately, we at least want to try here.  

When you say MPMaster, do you mean the MPLMaster?  

Yeah. Borrowed time is a good way to put it. Multi-Taskign lathes are not inexpensive.

MPLMaster, Yes. My autocorrect switched it. LOL I hate autocorrect.

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On 8/24/2022 at 5:14 AM, honeybunches said:

You are correct that codes are extremely close to Fanuc.  This machine runs NEC axis cards and Mitsubishi drives and motors.  Obviously we are on borrowed time with the whole thing anyway, but if you have priced a twin spindle, Y axis parts maker lately, we at least want to try here.  

When you say MPMaster, do you mean the MPLMaster?  

Yes - Reading the comments I was going to add that machine models didn't just have Yasnac, but also Mitsubishi as well as others with Fanuc back ends.

All front ends were Hitachi own proprietary software written by their own sub-contracted software house.

You're lucky having Mitsubishi as yasnac support is next to useless.

Don't bang the machine as the turret has a roller cam box with no positional clamping....the Z rails are up and over running on the roof of the machine and if you have a smack, these can be taken out too.

Also the Y axis rails are about 12mm wide.....

Treat it gently and they work well - trochoidal tool paths for any milling is advised as 12mm dia is a large cutter which is great for making "grippy surfaces" but not so good if you want to cut a good finish.... :) 

 

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19 hours ago, Newbeeee™ said:

Yes - Reading the comments I was going to add that machine models didn't just have Yasnac, but also Mitsubishi as well as others with Fanuc back ends.

All front ends were Hitachi own proprietary software written by their own sub-contracted software house.

You're lucky having Mitsubishi as yasnac support is next to useless.

Don't bang the machine as the turret has a roller cam box with no positional clamping....the Z rails are up and over running on the roof of the machine and if you have a smack, these can be taken out too.

Also the Y axis rails are about 12mm wide.....

Treat it gently and they work well - trochoidal tool paths for any milling is advised as 12mm dia is a large cutter which is great for making "grippy surfaces" but not so good if you want to cut a good finish.... :) 

 

Thanks.  Yes, I think the Mitsubishi hardware is good stuff.  I was totally blown away with their tech manuals and even phone support.  Wish the rest of the machine was that nice.  I think I know what you are saying on the turret.  They use a cam to index the turret so damage there could be a disaster?  

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On 8/27/2022 at 5:10 AM, honeybunches said:

Thanks.  Yes, I think the Mitsubishi hardware is good stuff.  I was totally blown away with their tech manuals and even phone support.  Wish the rest of the machine was that nice.  I think I know what you are saying on the turret.  They use a cam to index the turret so damage there could be a disaster?  

Yes that's correct. The turrets have Sankyo name on them but are made by Sandex (same manufacturer as for the milling machine toolchanger camboxes). They have a servo drive with encoder to give position, and a cam slot for the index, with needle roller bearings running in the cam slot.

 We had (allegedly but not sure) insert go on a boring bar which was deep into a 2.5" billet and it caused the billet to eject from the soft jaws.

Apparently.

Anyway, the billet definitely came out....resulting damage was the needle roller exploded in the slot which dented the cam slot, which because there was no hirth/clamping, we had float on that turret position for ever more. Not much, and as it was radial float (about 5 thou), it didn't affect the diameter/size, so we used that as a permanent rough pocket going forwards.

Other damage was the Z rails needed replacing - if you look at the machine design, and see where your tool is in contact to the work, follow it up and back over to the roof of the machine - there is a HUGE amount of mechanical advantage (leverage) from tool tip upto the Z rails. Hence them getting "dented" in the crash.

So treat it with care and it will do some good work. Treat it as a robust heavy duty mill-turn, and you'll snap it in half!

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On 8/23/2022 at 5:53 PM, honeybunches said:

Thank you and I do agree that I might need to run this up the chain a bit to maybe contact other vendors as I can certainly understand not having a "perfect" post, but close would be my hope.  

I am going to go absorb some of your vids to maybe refresh myself there.  At least for me, I have found huge benefit in being able to edit and tune a post to my liking.  I think I might consider doing my own post for this odd ball machine as an educational piece, but at the moment I am not sure if I start with MPLmaster, Hitachi 2x, or what.  I will absorb and think on this.  It's not urgent, but something I want to get solved.  I simply hate at-machine edits and patchwork programs.  

I had the same attitude which got me into Post Processor Development in the first place. I wanted my code to come out "edit-free", and eventually through learning about the MP Language, I was able to attain that and never looked back.

Start with MPLMaster. Both MPMaster (Mill), and MPLMaster (Lathe)  are excellent "base" Posts. They make take more initial "tweaking" versus the 2X Hitachi, but the 2X Post will not support 4-Axis output, including Y-Axis. The 4X Posts are much more involved and robust from a "plane handling standpoint".

Both the Generic Fanuc 4X MT_Lathe Post and MPLMaster, are great starting posts, but MPLMaster is like a "beefed-up" version of Gen Fan 4X MT_Lathe.

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Just now, Colin Gilchrist said:

I had the same attitude which got me into Post Processor Development in the first place. I wanted my code to come out "edit-free", and eventually through learning about the MP Language, I was able to attain that and never looked back.

Start with MPLMaster. Both MPMaster (Mill), and MPLMaster (Lathe)  are excellent "base" Posts. They make take more initial "tweaking" versus the 2X Hitachi, but the 2X Post will not support 4-Axis output, including Y-Axis. The 4X Posts are much more involved and robust from a "plane handling standpoint".

Both the Generic Fanuc 4X MT_Lathe Post and MPLMaster, are great starting posts, but MPLMaster is like a "beefed-up" version of Gen Fan 4X MT_Lathe.

Thanks Colin.  I will check for a more dialed post but not likely.  I think my post edit work mostly came out of need and I would not say I reinvented anything, just worked with switches and position of code within the outputs.  For instance, we had a minor issue with getting coolant to the nozzle before milling on one machine so instead of hand coding or programming a dwell, I just added a G4P0. somewhere after an M3/4.  It was then easier to go add time to P0 as needed.  

Really basic stuff but coming out of other computer programming helps.  It's piddly stuff that takes less time to go edit the post than even make a phone call.  

I do find it extremely helpful to try to track an output all the way to a machine because sometimes it is simply a programming issue and not even a most matter.  I never understood why people just go program part before actually running through testing of simple features to ensure procedures are well understood.  I like to play around with code and see what it looks like and does at a machine so we can build some confidence.  

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On 8/28/2022 at 5:51 AM, Newbeeee™ said:

Yes that's correct. The turrets have Sankyo name on them but are made by Sandex (same manufacturer as for the milling machine toolchanger camboxes). They have a servo drive with encoder to give position, and a cam slot for the index, with needle roller bearings running in the cam slot.

 We had (allegedly but not sure) insert go on a boring bar which was deep into a 2.5" billet and it caused the billet to eject from the soft jaws.

Apparently.

Anyway, the billet definitely came out....resulting damage was the needle roller exploded in the slot which dented the cam slot, which because there was no hirth/clamping, we had float on that turret position for ever more. Not much, and as it was radial float (about 5 thou), it didn't affect the diameter/size, so we used that as a permanent rough pocket going forwards.

Other damage was the Z rails needed replacing - if you look at the machine design, and see where your tool is in contact to the work, follow it up and back over to the roof of the machine - there is a HUGE amount of mechanical advantage (leverage) from tool tip upto the Z rails. Hence them getting "dented" in the crash.

So treat it with care and it will do some good work. Treat it as a robust heavy duty mill-turn, and you'll snap it in half!

Really appreciate your insight on the actual machine.  It is rare to find anyone with real experience.  I cannot say we have crashed this machine but I will certainly keep this in mind.  My leadership mission is that above all, we do NOT crash equipment!!!  I very much realize most get wound about deadlines, faster, more, and more.  I realize that one crash can set you back months plus new machine costs.  Couple that with my pucker factor of lathes in general.....lol  They run so sweet and quiet.......until something bad happens, and then they are a bomb.  

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