New 5x mills

[Rocketmachinist]

What do you guys think about these machines. We might be getting a 5x mill and don't have any experience with machines other than Haas and 1980's Cincinnati. We were wondering about reliability, accuracy, service and any other recommendations. These are the machines we are looking at. The price range would be around $500k

 

Makino D500 5-axis mill
Okuma MU-4000V
Doosan DVF-8000
Doosan DVF-6500
Hermle C250
Hermle C400
Hermle C650
DMG DMU-50 3rd Gen
DMG DMU-75 3rd Gen
Matsuura MX-520
Matsuura MX-800

 

[rgrin]

You have some wildly different machines on this list. For instance the C650 can swing a part that is 43" Collision circle where as the C250 can only swing a part that is 27". You should first focus on your part sizes you intend to machine and start to shrink your list from there.  

In my opinion though, the Hermles, Matsuuras, and Makino are pretty much the cream of the crop and in that order.  Hermle makes a slick machine and I personally love the Heidenhain control. They are probably one of the more accurate machines on your list but our C400 had some weird roundness issues while machining simultaneous 5 axis. But it seemed to be something going on with the program but no one really gave me a clear answer as to what or why so jury still out on that. I find there spindles to be lacking in power. I also don't like the grease system that lubricates the rails. The Y-axis rails sit on top of the U gantry and are exposed. Has not been issue as far as life is concerned, but the wipers push the grease and it mixes into the coolant over time and is impossible to filter.  I also am not a huge fan of their automation purely from an operation standpoint as most of their automation goes through the main cabin doors which means operators can not watch while under full auto mode. Probably not a huge deal in the grand scheme but just my opinion.

The Matsuuras have some of the best automation options as far as usability and sustainability are concerned.  They make good, accurate machines but I don't have any hands on experience with them yet. I really prefer the looks of the MAM series myself.

Makino is just hard to go wrong with. Consistently reliable manufacturer, but I only have personal experience with their horizontals. Worth a closer look.

I am a fan of Okuma's verticals. The control is pretty slick. Don't know much about their 5axis machines though.

[Rocketmachinist]

We had the people from our code say they might be giving us $500k to buy a new machine. But that number could be from $500k to $0. We would like to get something like a UMC 1000 or 750 or 500. But if we can afford things that aren't Haas then we would like to get a good machine if we can afford it. Right now the only trunnion machine we have is a VF-6 with the TRT-310 and that gets really tight. We should have gotten the riser for that machine. So my thought process is get the biggest nicest machine we can get now because we never get any money to buy nicer machines. Even at that most of the machines are still out of the price range of what we might get.

[crazy^millman]

^^^^^^ Good Points ^^^^^^^^

I don't see YASDA on the List. I would need to know sizes of parts.

Makino/Matsurra I would look at the MAM72-52V or MAM-63V verse the MX-850.  No particular order are my first choices.

Hermel/Okuma/DMG second chocies only reason Hermel is there is because of the lack of Ump in their Spindles. Want high RPM High Speed awesome, but want some low rpm power forget about it. Hermel doesn't seem to have the same tool capacity options at Makino or Matsurra.

Doosan would be the third choice and not because it is a bad machine, but on the list that is my thinking. 

[Rocketmachinist]

9 minutes ago, crazy^millman said:

^^^^^^ Good Points ^^^^^^^^

I don't see YASDA on the List. I would need to know sizes of parts.

Makino/Matsurra I would look at the MAM72-52V or MAM-63V verse the MX-850.  No particular order are my first choices.

Hermel/Okuma/DMG second chocies only reason Hermel is there is because of the lack of Ump in their Spindles. Want high RPM High Speed awesome, but want some low rpm power forget about it. Hermel doesn't seem to have the same tool capacity options at Makino or Matsurra.

Doosan would be the third choice and not because it is a bad machine, but on the list that is my thinking. 

Ron, i just looked at those MAM machines. It doesn't really work for our shop. We are almost exclusively doing ones and twos. If we get a part run of 10 then we start to feel like production machinists. Cycle time tends to take a back seat to "don't f#$% it or the machine up". Right now we have only Haas and Heidenhain in this shop. The Heidenhains are old TNC 426 and it would be nice to get something that isn't that far outside of what everyone else is use to running. But seeing as how we haven't bought anything outside of Haas since 1996 we have no idea how reliable service can be for the other companies. I think my boss crossed off Mazak for that reason.

[rgrin]

If the Hermle is and HSK63 it will likely have something like a 42 pocket internal magazine and the option to add on 1 or 2 more external magazines. Max capacity is 325 pockets on a C62 which is similar to the C650. The question that I don't know the answer to is if the additional magazines are an option on their "performance" line of machines.  If this is just for job shop work and not going to be automated in anyway, I would seriously look at Hermle. I found them very comfortable to run. They also have one of the best footprints to machine capacity ratios on the market. They take up very little floorspace compared to the size of parts they can handle. 

Also make sure you figure out who will be able to service your machines. I would look at GF Mikron mills in the same vein as Hermle, but their US service is run thin. We have problems getting techs out to service our GF edm machines from time to time in the midwest.

[Leon82]

We have 520 and 850s. They work well.

 

Our yasda is the linear motor machine and it is super consistent 

[cncappsjames]

On 9/8/2022 at 1:42 PM, rgrin said:

You have some wildly different machines on this list.... You should first focus on your part sizes you intend to machine and start to shrink your list from there. 

This, AND the Doosan and DMG do not belong on the same list as Hermele, Makino, Okuma or Matsuura IMHO.

Hermele, Makino, Okuma and Matsuura are competitive. Each one has things in the plus and minus column and will come down mainly to personal preference.

Yasda is kind of in a class all it's own, basically they are jig bore tolerance holding machines and are priced accordingly. Mitsui Seiki may take issue with that statement but I would put them in the same class with Hermele, Makino, Okuma and Matsuura.

JM2CFWIW

YMMV

[Matthew Hajicek - Singularity]

If the Okuma MU-4000V is too rich for you blood, consider the Okuma Genos M460V-5AX.  Same quality and precision, but with fewer options, and should be head and shoulders above a Haas UMC.

[gcode]

We have 2 Okuma's in this shop

A  VTM1200XB 5 axis VTL and a MU1000H horizonal 5X mill ( a trunnion with 5500lb capacity and an HSK125 spindle)

These 2 machines are the most productive machines we own... so much so that we are currently

digging the pit for a 2nd MU1000H which will arrive via convoy from Georgia in about 4 weeks.

An MU4000 probably cost 4x what a Haas UMC does, but it is easily 10x the machine 

[#Rekd™]

9 minutes ago, gcode said:

An MU4000 probably cost 4x what a Haas UMC does, but it is easily 10x the machine 

You are off by a 0.....100X the machine!!!

[Rocketmachinist]

We looked at the Hermle C650 & C250 and the Okuma M560V-5AX at IMTS last week. All 3 are sweet machines. I really like the Hermle, that machine with the new TNC 7 control... sooo nice. Both the Hermle and Okumas can do crash detection inside the control. Super nice. We couldn't look at the DMG because they were doing their own thing outside the show.

 

I did finally get to meet Colin Gilchrist at the show. That guys reputation precedes him, he is so knowledgeable and so nice. I am looking forward to see if we can get him onside to do some training.

 

IMTS was a good show, a little smaller than previous years. Even at that I still didn't have enough time in the 3 days I was there to see everything I wanted to see.

[cncappsjames]

4 hours ago, Rocketmachinist said:

We looked at the Hermle C650 & C250 and the Okuma M560V-5AX at IMTS last week....

No look at the Matsuura?

[Rocketmachinist]

1 hour ago, cncappsjames said:

No look at the Matsuura?

We looked at them briefly. I didn't flag anyone down and get into the weeds on them. I should have gone back and talked with them more we just ran out of time. We all took a shift at a booth in the student area. Between looking at the machines and talking to erp software people. I only had an hour and a half to mad dash through the tooling area before we had to go to some other event. 

[cncappsjames]

18 hours ago, Rocketmachinist said:

We looked at them briefly. I didn't flag anyone down and get into the weeds on them. I should have gone back and talked with them more we just ran out of time. We all took a shift at a booth in the student area. Between looking at the machines and talking to erp software people. I only had an hour and a half to mad dash through the tooling area before we had to go to some other event. 

I'm going ot be up in the Bay Area (Fremont I think so I'll fly into SJC) in the next few weeks if you want to arrange something. Going to visit with a customer with a Linear Cell system with both Matsuura HMC's and Matsuura 5-Axis machines in the same cell.

[Rocketmachinist]

On 9/22/2022 at 3:51 PM, cncappsjames said:

I'm going ot be up in the Bay Area (Fremont I think so I'll fly into SJC) in the next few weeks if you want to arrange something. Going to visit with a customer with a Linear Cell system with both Matsuura HMC's and Matsuura 5-Axis machines in the same cell.

Sure James. I will dm you my phone number and you can give me a call when it would be good to swing by.

[Colin Gilchrist]

It was great meeting you at the show Alex! James is a heck of a guy, and someone I really respect and admire. You two will get along great. 

[tim_h]

Following this one..

We are researching a few Matsuura 5-axis machines now.

MX420PC10

MX520

Cublex 35

Salesman is coming next week.

[MSL]

We have Makino D800Z and D200. We do have couple of Matsurra MX 520. Great machines and customer service. I would stay away from DMG.

[?Mark]

On 10/14/2022 at 9:52 PM, MSL said:

I would stay away from DMG.

Wow. Why?

I guess it's good for your competitors :)

Siemens/Heidenhain too powerful for you?

Or do you like to machine slow?

Longest warranty not long enough?

I'm visiting customers almost daily and feel bad how behind in technology they still are. Granted, some of that is their own fault because of lack of training and such...

If you have a local/close support, then DMGMORI should be at the top of the list for 5axis consideration.

A like few of the machines in the list. Yasda definitely, top notch. Matsurra - pretty good.

But hearing someone say to stay away from a DMGMORI is just nuts.

Most of the competition offers cat40 as a standard on higher rpm spindles...which is ridiculous...and there is so much more...

Jm2c

 

 

 

 

[Rocketmachinist]

On 10/16/2022 at 6:47 PM, ?Mark said:

Wow. Why?

I guess it's good for your competitors :)

Siemens/Heidenhain too powerful for you?

Or do you like to machine slow?

Longest warranty not long enough?

I'm visiting customers almost daily and feel bad how behind in technology they still are. Granted, some of that is their own fault because of lack of training and such...

If you have a local/close support, then DMGMORI should be at the top of the list for 5axis consideration.

A like few of the machines in the list. Yasda definitely, top notch. Matsurra - pretty good.

But hearing someone say to stay away from a DMGMORI is just nuts.

Most of the competition offers cat40 as a standard on higher rpm spindles...which is ridiculous...and there is so much more...

Jm2c

 

 

 

 

I'm pretty sure Ara has had one of the DMG Mori 5x machines with ultrasonic. I know he was having some trouble with it.

 

I did also get to meet James from Selway last Friday. Super standup guy as well. Thanks for inviting me to look at those Matsuuras, they looked pretty nice.

[MrFish]

Following !

And i'll just say that I would definitely stay away from the new UMC's. I'm not bashing on HAAS and had 6 of them in my last shop which we did some high tolerance/finish work on, including a first gen UMC750. But the second gen UMC's are a big step backwards. Well at least our UMC500 is, we have just been informed that "coining" marks in the corners of a pocket facing operation is a "normal" thing on UMC's and to not expect to be able to improve on that, this is taking 0.002" finishing passes too. The factory has done test cuts on a UMC1000 and UMC500 and can't improve on it, so it is what it is apparently !!

Another local company has just listed their UMC500 for sale after less than a years ownership due to continual thermal issues that HAAS can't improve on. We have also just seen this on a batch of parts that had the Z axis moving 0.002" in both directions between parts, I can handle consistent spindle growth that you can adjust for, this is part of machining, but not knowing if the cut will be up or down by 0.002" between one part and the next is ludicrous.

[cncappsjames]

As an aside;

"thermal issues"... the machine tool's thermal management is tied to the machine only. Not tied to part thermal growth. Not tied to workholding thermal growth, not tied to spindle taper expansion.

Anyone that has "thermal issues" regardless of machine program from center of rotation? 

[MSL]

On 10/16/2022 at 6:47 PM, ?Mark said:

Wow. Why?

I guess it's good for your competitors

Siemens/Heidenhain too powerful for you?

Or do you like to machine slow?

Longest warranty not long enough?

I'm visiting customers almost daily and feel bad how behind in technology they still are. Granted, some of that is their own fault because of lack of training and such...

If you have a local/close support, then DMGMORI should be at the top of the list for 5axis consideration.

A like few of the machines in the list. Yasda definitely, top notch. Matsurra - pretty good.

But hearing someone say to stay away from a DMGMORI is just nuts.

Most of the competition offers cat40 as a standard on higher rpm spindles...which is ridiculous...and there is so much more...

Jm2c

 

 

 

 

As you said "If you have a local/close support, then DMGMORI should be at the top of the list for 5axis consideration".

We don't have that support in Southern California. I like to hear from actual customers not from DMGMORI.

[crazy^millman]

On 10/14/2022 at 8:52 PM, MSL said:

We have Makino D800Z and D200. We do have couple of Matsurra MX 520. Great machines and customer service. I would stay away from DMG.

Yes they are some nice machines you have.