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What's the best way to become an expert on the 3D Toolpath section?


volitan71
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Not multi-axis, just the toolpaths listed under 3D in the ribbon.

Books from here? Class from the reseller? Youtubes? Trial and error on my own time like I did with the 2D stuff? All of the above?

Every so often I have to make a 3d prototype before it gets cast or forged or whatever. I'm always able to do it and the company is very happy with what I give them when it's finished. But man it's like pulling teeth going through all the settings trying to get the tool to do what I want. It's also a waste of time. I need to become as comfortable with all those toolpaths and their settings as I am with the 2D stuff. 

How did you get good at the 3D toolpaths?

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3 minutes ago, volitan71 said:

How did you get good at the 3D toolpaths?

For me, it was really just practice....none of the available material will cover all the scenerios that you run into from part to part to part....

After you've done it for a bit, you get a really good idea of which toolpaths react best to the surfaces that you're going to apply them machine.

To the best of my knowledge, there's really no one tutorial or video that will cover all the info that you'll acquire from experience.

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Maybe it's because I've never been formally taught, but some things I do I always wonder if it's the best way.

For example: I just machined the top of a curved surface, like the top of an airplane wing, and it had a recessed feature in it which also need some 3D contouring. I didn't want the tool machining the surface to go down into the recessed feature. I copied the model to another level, converted in from solid to surface so I could delete everything except the surface I was machining and used the "Fill Holes" feature to make it smooth.

You think that's bad form? Copying models to another level to modify them to get the tools to do what you want?

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3 minutes ago, volitan71 said:

Maybe it's because I've never been formally taught, but some things I do I always wonder if it's the best way.

For example: I just machined the top of a curved surface, like the top of an airplane wing, and it had a recessed feature in it which also need some 3D contouring. I didn't want the tool machining the surface to go down into the recessed feature. I copied the model to another level, converted in from solid to surface so I could delete everything except the surface I was machining and used the "Fill Holes" feature to make it smooth.

You think that's bad form? Copying models to another level to modify them to get the tools to do what you want?

In that case I make a surface and un trim.  Or surface fill holes is an option if it's a full hole

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7 minutes ago, JParis said:

For me, it was really just practice....none of the available material will cover all the scenerios that you run into from part to part to part....

After you've done it for a bit, you get a really good idea of which toolpaths react best to the surfaces that you're going to apply them machine.

To the best of my knowledge, there's really no one tutorial or video that will cover all the info that you'll acquire from experience.

That's how I learned the 2D stuff, just practicing and changing parameters and seeing what it does. It seems like there are a ton more options in 3D though.

 

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Just now, volitan71 said:

You think that's bad form? Copying models to another level to modify them to get the tools to do what you want?

Let's see, really a 2 part thing here...I "try" not to copy solids unless I have to...I'll pull surfaces in many cases and clean those up...the reasoning is 2 fold...

1 Copying solids too many times will inflate your file size and affect performance...

2. Surfaces are just lighter weight and have more tools to clean them up and create things to assist in machining

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Years ago I was doing some one on one training with a customer....we going over somethings and he asked me, "What's better, solids or surfaces?"  He's still around this forum and the other, so he may remember asking me...

My answer to him was, "you really need to have both of them in your toolbox, they both serve purpose and at times one will give you a better result than another" and I stand by that to this day.

In and around the same timeframe, a company, who was not a Mastercam customer by the way, contacted us and asked about some contract programming time.....well, they sent in the file and it was a large engine casing....that single solid was so heavy in the system, that as I programmed it and the file size grew, I would literally get up and hit the mathroom,  get a cup of coffee, grab a snack come back and sit down and still wait a minute or 2 for the dialog to open...

That's no way to program....10pm at night, I'm in  hotel room in CT, bitching here on this forum and someone suggested converting it to surfaces and dumping the solid....as soon as I did that, the file performance was like night and day.....

I am not saying don't use solids but saying be careful copying solids too many times, they bloat the file.....and in my world any way, it makes the inevitable Rev chamnges easier too  :)

JM2C YMMV 

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The cap holes feature works on solids in MC. When you select both solids and surfaces the software knows to just keep going and in essence its all one surface or looks like it.  Pretty cool now it does that vs the older/other software that either won't let you combine those types of geometry or forces retract at every edge when the tool passes over.

 

How to get good??? Do it eleventy billion times.... just when you think you git it, another better way will pop in to your head.

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4 hours ago, JParis said:

Years ago I was doing some one on one training with a customer....we going over somethings and he asked me, "What's better, solids or surfaces?"  He's still around this forum and the other, so he may remember asking me...

My answer to him was, "you really need to have both of them in your toolbox, they both serve purpose and at times one will give you a better result than another" and I stand by that to this day.

BOTH have their place and I 100% support this line of thinking. I still use the old school flowline/flow 5-Ax toolpaths for certain part topologies, and some times that requires me to build a Coons Surface in order to get the best surface finish. I'm thankful Mastercam hasn't got rid of them yet.

 

JM2CFWIW YMMV

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A big problem with me is that I just don't do enough of it.  So I end up forgetting what I learned and have to relearn time and time again which feels like a waste of time.  If i did it every day like the 2d stuff it would be much better.  Its a problem.  plus it feels like when i learn some 3d stuff that i think i can repeat on all jobs it turns out to not be the case because of the differences in parts with the need for 3d toolpaths make the toolpaths not do what i think it should.  I think unlike the 2d paths I have to be ok with having to test different settings and see what it gives me and adjust a lot.  Its like you said it always feels like there must be a better way and that you are just giving up and having to be satisfied with what you have.  With 2d its not like that.  I always feel like its perfect with no room for real improvement.

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10 minutes ago, Programinator said:

A big problem with me is that I just don't do enough of it. 

With relatively few exceptions (there are always the gifted people - on a personal note, I'm DEFINITELY not one of them), the best (insert career field here) are the ones that are constantly honing their skills and craft. They spend their own "free" time learning and getting better. I think Malcom Gladwell said it well basically; it takes 10,000 hours or 10,000 repetitions to become proficient at something. There are no shortcuts.

Sure, anyone can Google or YouTube almost anything and learn something in the moment, but that is not the foundation upon which the vast majority of highly skilled individuals have built their careers. They are built upon three things; Repetition. Repetition. Repetition.

Arguably it has NEVER been easier to gain proficiency in any technical field. Nearly every software system has either educational versions available, or something similar if you are enrolled in a formal training program. It's ALL there for the taking.

Like life, you get out of it what you put into it. @programinator, don't read this as an indictment against you personally because that is not how it was intended. Read this as career advise if you are dissatisfied with your current level of knowledge. As for me, I am most definitely NOT satisfied with my current skills as I believe they are sorely lacking in many areas. There are only two solutions to that problem; time AND effort.

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5 minutes ago, cncappsjames said:

With relatively few exceptions (there are always the gifted people - on a personal note, I'm DEFINITELY not one of them), the best (insert career field here) are the ones that are constantly honing their skills and craft. They spend their own "free" time learning and getting better. I think Malcom Gladwell said it well basically; it takes 10,000 hours or 10,000 repetitions to become proficient at something. There are no shortcuts.

Sure, anyone can Google or YouTube almost anything and learn something in the moment, but that is not the foundation upon which the vast majority of highly skilled individuals have built their careers. They are built upon three things; Repetition. Repetition. Repetition.

Arguably it has NEVER been easier to gain proficiency in any technical field. Nearly every software system has either educational versions available, or something similar if you are enrolled in a formal training program. It's ALL there for the taking.

Like life, you get out of it what you put into it. @programinator, don't read this as an indictment against you personally because that is not how it was intended. Read this as career advise if you are dissatisfied with your current level of knowledge. As for me, I am most definitely NOT satisfied with my current skills as I believe they are sorely lacking in many areas. There are only two solutions to that problem; time AND effort.

Spot on!!!!

If people understood exactly how much time and effort I have put into "me" they'd be floored. Hours upon hours, upon hours.

I am never done learning, I am always exploring new things, new ways and new ideas....despite what some people think, you can learn something from everyone.

 

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1 hour ago, JParis said:

I am never done learning, I am always exploring new things, new ways and new ideas....despite what some people think, you can learn something from everyone.

Bang on! Everyday is a new learning day in my books....I will stop learning when my body decides it is time to rest in peace.

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Just get in there and try different things until it does what you need it to do, every time it doesn't do what you need it to do you learn what it DOES do.  Thats kind of how I learned, I needed to learn to make money.  Making mistakes on the screen doesn't break machines or tools, that's what I tell people when I'm training them

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On 10/7/2022 at 12:30 PM, cncappsjames said:

BOTH have their place and I 100% support this line of thinking. I still use the old school flowline/flow 5-Ax toolpaths for certain part topologies, and some times that requires me to build a Coons Surface in order to get the best surface finish. I'm thankful Mastercam hasn't got rid of them yet.

 

JM2CFWIW YMMV

same here, I create a 'old 3d toolpaths" tab on every new install as some of these paths just get the job done better than the new ones, dreading the day CNC software decide to ditch them which I unfortunately think is inevitable at some stage.

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On 10/6/2022 at 5:39 PM, cruzila said:

The cap holes feature works on solids in MC. When you select both solids and surfaces the software knows to just keep going and in essence its all one surface or looks like it.  Pretty cool now it does that vs the older/other software that either won't let you combine those types of geometry or forces retract at every edge when the tool passes over.

 

How to get good??? Do it eleventy billion times.... just when you think you git it, another better way will pop in to your head.

Thanks! I did not know it worked on solids, I assumed I had to use surfaces so I created them.

 

On 10/6/2022 at 6:24 PM, Leon82 said:

Power surface can be handy with split holes. I have no idea how to use it but for roughing it is good

Power surface is one of those things that I saw in one of the "2 Minute Tuesday" emails from Cimquest and forgot all about lol

 

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practice helps get good at a task but not if you keep on practicing something the hard way, Lets say i need to get from point A to point B and all i know how to do is drive a bike, i could practice every day and get really good and fast on that bike, but someone in a car or truck would still beat me to wherever im going no matter how much practice i have. Same concept with using software, you could be very practiced and proficient with somethign but if your doing it the hard way or long way about someone with less practice could beat you. Like for example some users may have learned to create edge curves or wireframe off solids then toolpath off the wireframe, nothing wrong with that and they may be super fast at that but still not as fast as just solid chaining and not even worrying about creating wireframe, not trying to start a wireframe vs solid chaining argument but my point is proper training then practice is far better than just a bunch of practice. Because no matter how much practice you have on your bike your not going to beat someone in a car

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7 hours ago, JoshC said:

...Because no matter how much practice you have on your bike your not going to beat someone in a car...

Until there's a traffic fatality, then my bike kicks my car's ***. 

<laughter>

In all seriousness, each tool has it's place and nothing but seat time/practice/trial and error helps a programmer discern which tool is the most appropriate for any given task. 

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16 hours ago, JoshC said:

Like for example some users may have learned to create edge curves or wireframe off solids then toolpath off the wireframe, nothing wrong with that and they may be super fast at that but still not as fast as just solid chaining and not even worrying about creating wireframe,

Funny you mention that, just within the last couple months I stopped creating edge geometry when it's not necessary, but for many years that's how I did it.

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The uhhhhhh "traffic fatality" is in reference to a CAD model import that results in a near useless model.

Seemingly (at least in cases where I tend to experience them) when it happens, "... it's the only model we have and we can't ask the customer for another file...". Which in translation means the part is WAY late, we lied to our customer about where it's at in process, the customer doesn't know that their vendor farmed it out, or, they are just to lazy to ask for a new model.

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13 minutes ago, cncappsjames said:

The uhhhhhh "traffic fatality" is in reference to a CAD model import that results in a near useless model.

Seemingly (at least in cases where I tend to experience them) when it happens, "... it's the only model we have and we can't ask the customer for another file...". Which in translation means the part is WAY late, we lied to our customer about where it's at in process, the customer doesn't know that their vendor farmed it out, or, they are just to lazy to ask for a new model.

I was making parts for a company and the guy called and said where are they. I said we're working on them and he said"what does that mean, you haven't started them yet?"

 

So I said yes.

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