What machine for a start-up

[ThisGuy]

Hello everyone,

Not sure if I this really belongs here but I'd like some opinions about machine brands.

So I'm busy making a business plan and I've reached the point where I should start making decisions on what machine to start with. 

On my mind are for example: 

Mazak. Seems quite alright, decent pricing. But I'm not sure about the mazatrol controls. I'm more used to Heidenhain but then again, without Mazatrol experience I can't say if it's any good or not 

Doosan. Again, seems quite alright, but to be fair a little on the pricy side for what they are. 

Makino. Hear good things about it but never worked with it and have no clue about pricing. 

DMG. Definitely not bad machines but in my experience can be quite sensitive when it comes to errors. Some run years without issues other runs weeks without issues at best. Also not cheap and they seems to charge quite a bit in case of maintenance.

Okuma. Now I know these are long lasting quality machines. I've seen them over 20 years old going strong and still precise. Not cheap but a buy once cry once machine. 

Now there are plenty other options like Chinese budget brands as Axile (don't really wanna get into that) or high end brands like Yasda (can't really afford that).

But it seems to me that a good machine to start with would be a decent mid segment. So let's leave both the Lexus / Meibach and the Dacia / Deawoo out of the list. 

I really hope I can get some solid advice here since every salesman will try to convince you that  their products can reach tolerances within a μ even when the machine stands outdoors on a sloped hillside. 

Thanks in advance! 

 

 

[SN_MCam_User]

Good luck to you - on my mind would be service service service...who ya gonna call for service and how long are you gonna wait?  You may not need them often...but when you do...it can be a blown deadline and an annoyed customer if you're waiting.

[JParis]

I am about to make some people fall of their chairs...

Haas....great startup machines...in a few years after you hopefully establish yourself, look to upgrade.

 

[gcode]

What are you going to be building ?

Do you require multiaxis capabilities or is 3X enough for now

What work envelope is required?

I'm with JP for the most part,

I love Okumas but an Okuma sized machine payment and a couple of slow months can be a bullet in the head for a start up.

[#Rekd™]

I personally think Doosan is a decent commodity machine for most shops.
 

If you want higher end go for a Japanese made machine like Makino, Okuma, Matsuura.

 

[Matthew Hajicek - Singularity]

The machine depends on the work.  Are you going to do oil field parts and battleship cannons, or miniature medical device parts?  Inconel and Titanium, or military grade billet aluminum?  Flat plates with holes, turbines, or bone plates?

[JoshC]

5 hours ago, JParis said:

I am about to make some people fall of their chairs...

Haas....great startup machines...in a few years after you hopefully establish yourself, look to upgrade.

 

i agree, mostly because if someone  doesn't know how to do anything on a haas machine, a very simple youtube or google search will yield a ton of info on how to do whatever it might be, and haas's Tip of the day videos are amazing to say the least and with watching a short tip of the day vid from mark terryberry you can learn how to do whatever you might need. Sure you can find videos on other machines, but the info is just so readily available for anything that you might want to do with haas machines. these are all just opinions and to each their own but thats why i think haas machines are great startup machines is because they are easy to learn, easy to use and easy to find information on whatever you want to do. 

[ThisGuy]

15 hours ago, SN_MCam_User said:

Good luck to you - on my mind would be service service service...who ya gonna call for service and how long are you gonna wait?  You may not need them often...but when you do...it can be a blown deadline and an annoyed customer if you're waiting.

This crossed my mind as well, good service could make a lot of difference!

15 hours ago, JParis said:

I am about to make some people fall of their chairs...

Haas....great startup machines...in a few years after you hopefully establish yourself, look to upgrade.

 

Yes of course.. i feel a bit embarrassed for posting here and not mentioning Haas.

The thing is, i have no experience with Haas at all and they don't seem to be represented that well on this side of the pond.

[Simon Kausch]

16 hours ago, ThisGuy said:

Now there are plenty other options like Chinese budget brands as Axile (don't really wanna get into that) or high end brands like Yasda (can't really afford that).

But it seems to me that a good machine to start with would be a decent mid segment. So let's leave both the Lexus / Meibach and the Dacia / Deawoo out of the list.

Axile is from Taiwan and is using a lot of Heidenhain/Kessler components for the the important bits.  We have an Axile DC12 since this summer, if you have any questions. Besides the Axile we have Reiden and Mikron machines, but they're twice as expenisive.

[ThisGuy]

14 hours ago, gcode said:

What are you going to be building ?

Do you require multiaxis capabilities or is 3X enough for now

What work envelope is required?

I'm with JP for the most part,

I love Okumas but an Okuma sized machine payment and a couple of slow months can be a bullet in the head for a start up.

 

12 hours ago, Matthew Hajicek - Singularity said:

The machine depends on the work.  Are you going to do oil field parts and battleship cannons, or miniature medical device parts?  Inconel and Titanium, or military grade billet aluminum?  Flat plates with holes, turbines, or bone plates?

Hahaha no battleship cannons for me. It's gonna be a 5 axis with a table in the  ±Ø500 range. Although it seems that the focus is going to be a bit more on Alu, the general steels + 304 306 316 range will have to be a possibility as well. So I'm leaning towards a 18.000 rpm head. Yes its a little more fragile than a robust 12.000 rpm one but that would just be too low to mill Alu efficiently.

But the question is more about the general experience with brands, like do they last, do they keep their precision longer than the warranty last and the overall feeling of satisfaction

3 minutes ago, Simon Kausch said:

Axile is from Taiwan and is using a lot of Heidenhain/Kessler components for the the important bits.  We have an Axile DC12 since this summer, if you have any questions. Besides the Axile we have Reiden and Mikron machines, but they're twice as expenisive.

My mistake, thnx for the info though!

So from your response, I take that you're actually quite satisfied with it?

[gcode]

This is your machine

GENOS M460V-5AX | 5-Axis Vertical Machining Center | VMC (okuma.com)

 

or it's big brother.. 

Video | MU-6300V-L 5-Axis Machining Center | Okuma

[ThisGuy]

27 minutes ago, gcode said:

This is your machine

GENOS M460V-5AX | 5-Axis Vertical Machining Center | VMC (okuma.com)

 

or it's big brother.. 

Video | MU-6300V-L 5-Axis Machining Center | Okuma

I'll take it. I have been looking at similar machines from Okuma, going to visit their open house in two weeks to drool over whatever they have there.

[cncappsjames]

500mm table ... Matsuura MX-850 won't break the bank... relatively speaking of course.

In your spreadsheet/list, support should be weighted heavily. Not just service because that should be a given, but Applications Engineering support. The people that will train you how to maximize your significant investment. There are A LOT of companies out there selling sophisticated equipment that don't have the slightest clue how to really drive the machine tool. They don't know even well programming enough to be able to give you basic guidelines for tolerances, point spacing, and high speed processing modes the control is capable of.

When it comes down to teaching you about all the functions, why, were and when you should use them, how/why to implement probing into your process(es)etc... it really pays to look for a partnership in that arena and that your machine tool dealer's technical staff is up to snuff to effectively teach you these things and more.

[Matthew Hajicek - Singularity]

How about a Hermle C250?