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Job Shop Productivity Ideas


Tkrohn45
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I am making this topic to kind of get an idea of how other Job shops may be set up. A little information about our shop: We have 9 Mazak Vertical mills, and a wire edm. We currently have 8 guys running those machines, and 7 seats of Mastercam (one guy just runs the mill using Mazatrol or programs we post for him.) We run a plethora of jobs and materials. Sometimes bouncing a job between two people. We currently use a tool library that one guy created back in like X9, and only use 2 materials (6061 and A-2). This tool library, material library, and all defaults are saved on the server and used by every Computer. 
Anyone have any ideas on if there are ways to improve our productivity, besides just running two machines per guy. Running two machines per guy works well if we are running something that will take a while. Most times thats not the case. We have thought about the idea of only having a couple guys program parts then just have guys only run machines, but we are thinking that would be a hassle with smaller orders or if there has to be offsets made. 
If there are any ideas as well about tool libraries, making them better/more efficient. What we have works now, but it might be outdated and I feel like improvements can be made specifically with organization. We don't really use one brand of tooling, or have a tool crib. We find that default material and tool library just doesnt seem to work right, feeds and speeds are always messed up. We have it set up where if we import a tool, itll work but its not for every application.
Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.

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I would look at your setup times as the likely biggest place to save time...if a spindle isn't making chips, it's costing you money.

Standardize as much as you can,. Modular fixturing in every application possible....there will be those that a vise and softjaws are just necessary.

Multiple parts at once, minimize those tool changes...

To my way of thinking, 7 seats of CAM for those machines tied up a lot of capital... get yourself a dedicated programmer who can work to a standard, Let the setup guys concentrate on gettings machines going and passing them off to operators. We have nearly 50 machines we program for, mostly using 2-3 seats...we have 6 of Mill 3 alone.

Without digging into "your" shoip specifically, there's likely a whole ball of wax that's being missed. 

JM2C YMMV

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6 minutes ago, JParis said:

I would look at your setup times as the likely biggest place to save time...if a spindle isn't making chips, it's costing you money.

Standardize as much as you can,. Modular fixturing in every application possible....there will be those that a vise and softjaws are just necessary.

Multiple parts at once, minimize those tool changes...

To my way of thinking, 7 seats of CAM for those machines tied up a lot of capital... get yourself a dedicated programmer who can work to a standard, Let the setup guys concentrate on gettings machines going and passing them off to operators. We have nearly 50 machines we program for, mostly using 2-3 seats...we have 6 of Mill 3 alone.

Without digging into "your" shoip specifically, there's likely a whole ball of wax that's being missed. 

JM2C YMMV

I like your points. I can give a little more specific information on our shop. All but two of our machines are set up pretty much the same way, vertical mills with two vices. This lets us get 99% of our jobs done. If we need any specific workholding, we either make a fixture thatll work in our vices, or find another solution at that point in time. The other two machines are bigger machines, still vertical, just have 5-9 vices, and big plates to clamp parts to. The machines running two vices, is pretty much all they can have in them, three vices become too cramped and can make running parts off the sides difficult. We tend to run both vices if we have multiple parts in an order. A lot of the time though, we only have 1 or two pieces to the order and its usually just square up and put holes in them. 

I personally like the idea of have a programmer to cut down on cost of the seats we have, the biggest issue I have is we don't have a lot of parts that are "complicated" to program, so it may only take a couple minutes to program them. The other issue is if we do have a part, and something like a bore doesnt come out to size and need to adjust and rerun, the only way I can think of doing that easily is changing the parameters on mastercam and reposting. I can't figure out how to use tool offsets properly. 

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What is the quantity per lot?  If you're running hundreds (or thousands) it helps to have setups that run many parts.  That allows you to have an operator run more than one machine.  Also, if you have parts with more than one operation, set it up progressively, that way every time you open the door you have complete parts.

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5 minutes ago, Tkrohn45 said:

The other issue is if we do have a part, and something like a bore doesnt come out to size and need to adjust and rerun, the only way I can think of doing that easily is changing the parameters on mastercam and reposting. I can't figure out how to use tool offsets properly. 

This should NOT have to be done....

Just from reading your more detailed information, there's a ton of room for improvement.

Now I am going to say this and I don't want you to think I'm being an arse, it's the reality of the your situation....

You need to change your mindset....that might be the single biggest hurdle you have....get online, YouTube, MMS, look at how other shops streamlined. A vise and softjaws will only take you so far...

You need to learn how offsets work...that is holding you back...

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33 minutes ago, Tkrohn45 said:

I am making this topic to kind of get an idea of how other Job shops may be set up. A little information about our shop: We have 9 Mazak Vertical mills, and a wire edm. We currently have 8 guys running those machines, and 7 seats of Mastercam (one guy just runs the mill using Mazatrol or programs we post for him.) We run a plethora of jobs and materials. Sometimes bouncing a job between two people. We currently use a tool library that one guy created back in like X9, and only use 2 materials (6061 and A-2). This tool library, material library, and all defaults are saved on the server and used by every Computer. 
Anyone have any ideas on if there are ways to improve our productivity, besides just running two machines per guy. Running two machines per guy works well if we are running something that will take a while. Most times thats not the case. We have thought about the idea of only having a couple guys program parts then just have guys only run machines, but we are thinking that would be a hassle with smaller orders or if there has to be offsets made. 
If there are any ideas as well about tool libraries, making them better/more efficient. What we have works now, but it might be outdated and I feel like improvements can be made specifically with organization. We don't really use one brand of tooling, or have a tool crib. We find that default material and tool library just doesnt seem to work right, feeds and speeds are always messed up. We have it set up where if we import a tool, itll work but its not for every application.
Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.

 

You have 7 programmers each with their own mill?

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2 minutes ago, JParis said:

This should NOT have to be done....

Just from reading your more detailed information, there's a ton of room for improvement.

Now I am going to say this and I don't want you to think I'm being an arse, it's the reality of the your situation....

You need to change your mindset....that might be the single biggest hurdle you have....get online, YouTube, MMS, look at how other shops streamlined. A vise and softjaws will only take you so far...

You need to learn how offsets work...that is holding you back...

I agree, that is why i am here. I am trying to learn, I am new to this shop, Mastercam, and CNC machining in general. I only have 5 years experience in CNC machining, 2 of which was in a production shop as a button presser. 2 more as a setup guy in the production shop on OD grinders and Lathe. Only in the last year have I been working with Mastercam and more of the actual machining side. Still got a lot of learning to do, but I agree with you, there is better ways to do things here and I am trying to find that out. But i need to find the right way because its me (a younger guy) against older guys who have been doing things this way for 10 years. 

8 minutes ago, AMCNitro said:

What is the quantity per lot?  If you're running hundreds (or thousands) it helps to have setups that run many parts.  That allows you to have an operator run more than one machine.  Also, if you have parts with more than one operation, set it up progressively, that way every time you open the door you have complete parts.

Most of the time our parts we run are a simply contour and holes/slots. Only a couple parts at a time, under 10. But we do get bigger orders at times, and more complicated parts. As far as multiple operations go, we usually have one stop for x/y and can flip the part whatever we need in our vices. 

2 minutes ago, volitan71 said:

 

You have 7 programmers each with their own mill?

Basically, yes. 

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I think the biggest question I have, "are you the peron in the position to make these changes?" 

Change "can" start from the bottom but unless the top supports it, it's going nowhere....has to be ownership/management buy in...otherwise, it's shoveling xxxxe againt the tide

and I think you just ran up ugainst the "New member posting limit" for the day...

 

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17 minutes ago, JParis said:

I think the biggest question I have, "are you the peron in the position to make these changes?" 

Change "can" start from the bottom but unless the top supports it, it's going nowhere....has to be ownership/management buy in...otherwise, it's shoveling xxxxe againt the tide

and I think you just ran up ugainst the "New member posting limit" for the day...

 

I am not the person to make changes, but i am someone who can suggest change and see where it goes. The boss is looking for ways to become more productive.

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I don't want to throw water on you because honestly, this industry NEEDS motivated individuals.

I will preface by saying, what I am about to say may well be my own jaded views of my younger years in job shops.

Do "YOU" a favor now....learn how to use cutter compensation, and I am guessing there's a whole lot of more basics that you can hone....do 500, 1000 do a ton of setups so that you can see many different problems that arise.....in that experience, you'll build some cache' you'll earn confidence and most importantly, trust. Learn how to program, learn how to do it well, not just how to slap something together and throw it at a machine...that is not a good programmer.

You are in a shop that has gotten into the position it is in by a certain mindset....regardless of an idea, I think you will find it a very difficult road to get anything done in that way at this time. Unless you can convince the powers that be, that it is their idea, you will most likely get a whole lot of lip service and not much more.

So I say focus on you! 

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One big change we made was replacing our vertical mills with horizontals. We bought our first horizontal with the idea that we would gain a 30% reduction in machining time. After six months we realized a 65% reduction and we now have 11 horizontals and two verticals. We are also getting quotes for another 800mm HMC.

Creating a tool crib for keeping the tooling and fixtures would be a big benefit if done properly. One guy keeps all of our horizontals with tooling for the next part or the next two by himself. One other crib guy does nothing but orders whatever our shop needs to keep the ball rolling.

These are pricey in themselves but have potential in quicker payback and it can be done in segments.

 

 

 

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1. As mentioned, you MUST learn to use wear offsets.  Figure the time to edit, repost, reload the program, vs hitting a couple buttons on the control.  That time is money.  Also, I bet since you're not using offsets, a lot of your parts are using much of their allowed tolerance.  My clients have mentioned how happy they are that when given +/- .005" I'm generally within +/- .001 or better.  In most cases that doesn't cost me any more, because I'm using wear offsets to get there.

2. Use template files.  Instead of programming each part from scratch, especially if your parts are substantially similar, pull up a copy of the file for a similar part, import the new geometry, and reattach the toolpaths.  Saves me a lot of time.

3. Use HSMAdvisor or similar for feeds and speeds; it will give you different numbers for various cutting conditions and stickouts, with the same tool in the same material.  So you can do full width slotting safely, but also minimize cycle time on narrower cuts.

4. Develop a setup sheet template that all your setup guys can agree on.  That way one guy can program, and hand the setup to another guy.  That'll pay off the first sick day.  After a while you'll learn which couple guys should be mostly dedicated programmers, and which should be mostly setup guys.

5. Look at the ratios of time utilization: machine idle while planning and programming, machine being setup, and machine running.  If you have a lot of the first, that's a bottleneck that can be eliminated with dedicated programmers.  If you have a lot of the second, you can improve that with standard setup types and fixturing, and keeping standard tools in the machine.  Maybe some quick-point or zero-point mounting plates or vacuum fixturing depending on the parts.  When you get to having a lot of the third, focus on cycle time reduction with tooling and programming style changes, and cutting parameters.

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17 hours ago, AHarrison1 said:

I would consider making some of the machines material specific.

You can then load up the tool carousel with the material specific tools. Stack the carousel with common tools.

If you recycle chips i.e. aluminum then chip management becomes streamlined.

 

Agreed, this is great advice.

The other part of this is to really leverage import/export, and set up material specific operation libraries.  If you import an operation, you get the correct tool with the feed & speed already loaded, all stepovers/etc. set up, and all you have to do is select geometry.   For example, every time you run across a 1/4-20 or M8x1.25, you should be importing all N operations and have your geometry selected so you can choose the first operation, then drag and drop the geometry to the other ops.  It should take you less than 30 seconds to get that programmed in any material you've done before.

I completely agree with Matthew above.  Learn to use wear comp for any finishing passes, and learn how to jump into a program on your control and resume.  Make anything critical (especially round bores & bosses) have a separate toolpath for a finish pass with wear comp on, so you can immediately probe your critical feature on the machine, adjust wear comp if necessary and re-run the finish passes.   I know a lot of people who re-ran an entire 20 minute program because they never figured out how to jump directly to Op#18.

I was just onsite with a customer doing some training and showed them these two things above (toolpath library creation and figuring out how to jump directly to an op on their control) and we estimated that they're going to save at minimum 6 hours of programming and 2-3 hours of machine time per week!  Every time they were encountering a 1/4-20, they were defining the tool, setting the speed for the materials, defining the drill toolpath params, etc..

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18 hours ago, Tkrohn45 said:

I am not the person to make changes, but i am someone who can suggest change and see where it goes. The boss is looking for ways to become more productive.

The boss is always "looking" at ways to become more productive but it takes more than "looking" to totally rewrite the culture of a shop.

Ask him how committed he is to making things "better." Ask him how much money he is wiling to spend to make things "better."

A few cleverly worded questions can sus out how serious they are about change. This 5 minute conversation can save you alot of headache and wasted time.

 

Its all too common to get someone like yourself who is striving to make everything and everyone better, only to be smashed down by management who don't fully support the direction you want to take things. They will give you alot of surface level fluff but when the time comes to commit to change they back down like panzies.

 

Good luck. Lots of great ideas in this thread!

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Thanks for all the replies. Lots of great advice. I am going to keep learning as much as i can, including tool offsets because I feel those will be very helpful as far as rerunning programs. I also talked to my boss about programming parts ahead of time on my own time, for pay, I don't see our shop being able to only have one programmer, but if I program parts ahead of time, outside of shop hours, that should cut down time during shop hours. 

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21 hours ago, Tkrohn45 said:

Thanks for all the replies. Lots of great advice. I am going to keep learning as much as i can, including tool offsets because I feel those will be very helpful as far as rerunning programs. I also talked to my boss about programming parts ahead of time on my own time, for pay, I don't see our shop being able to only have one programmer, but if I program parts ahead of time, outside of shop hours, that should cut down time during shop hours. 

What problems are you having with tool offsets?  

When I started on CNC machining, I didn't get any formal training, it was my dad and I just learning on an old 2.5D machine, I don't even know if it had diameter offsets.  Then I went out on my own, now working on proper machines, I still didn't know about diameter offsets, so I did things the same way you're doing them.  Finally, I worked a job shop, and I learned about diameter offsets, and wondered how I ever got on without it.

I grasped the concept pretty quick.  But there's a couple of different ways of doing it.  Ask here, I'm sure most of us can help you .

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21 hours ago, Tkrohn45 said:

I don't see our shop being able to only have one programmer

 

We have six verticals and one horizontal and I've been the only programmer at this shop for 20 years.  Over half of our work load is new jobs and a lot of those are one off parts so there is a constant stream of programming going through here.  I don't know what type of work you do or what the quantities are, but if I were a shop owner with 9 mills, unless we were running all molds or prototype work, I couldn't justify 7 seats of Mastercam and 7 programmers.  That sounds like a strange precarious environment.

I'm surprised that nobody at the shop you work for has taught you how to use tool offsets?  I'd love to be a fly on the wall in that shop for a few weeks.  :D   

Good luck to you. You're getting some good advise in here. 

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On 10/19/2022 at 9:25 AM, Aaron Eberhard said:

Agreed, this is great advice.

The other part of this is to really leverage import/export, and set up material specific operation libraries.  If you import an operation, you get the correct tool with the feed & speed already loaded, all stepovers/etc. set up, and all you have to do is select geometry.   For example, every time you run across a 1/4-20 or M8x1.25, you should be importing all N operations and have your geometry selected so you can choose the first operation, then drag and drop the geometry to the other ops.  It should take you less than 30 seconds to get that programmed in any material you've done before.

I completely agree with Matthew above.  Learn to use wear comp for any finishing passes, and learn how to jump into a program on your control and resume.  Make anything critical (especially round bores & bosses) have a separate toolpath for a finish pass with wear comp on, so you can immediately probe your critical feature on the machine, adjust wear comp if necessary and re-run the finish passes.   I know a lot of people who re-ran an entire 20 minute program because they never figured out how to jump directly to Op#18.

I was just onsite with a customer doing some training and showed them these two things above (toolpath library creation and figuring out how to jump directly to an op on their control) and we estimated that they're going to save at minimum 6 hours of programming and 2-3 hours of machine time per week!  Every time they were encountering a 1/4-20, they were defining the tool, setting the speed for the materials, defining the drill toolpath params, etc..

 

Are you saying you have operation libraries saved with just a spot, drill and tap for each tap?

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On 10/19/2022 at 6:25 AM, Aaron Eberhard said:

I completely agree with Matthew above.  Learn to use wear comp for any finishing passes, and learn how to jump into a program on your control and resume.  Make anything critical (especially round bores & bosses) have a separate toolpath for a finish pass with wear comp on, so you can immediately probe your critical feature on the machine, adjust wear comp if necessary and re-run the finish passes.   I know a lot of people who re-ran an entire 20 minute program because they never figured out how to jump directly to Op#18.

THIS!!  Sometimes I even use 2 different tools, one for roughing and the one with TC for finishing.  You can even set the finishing operation on the end of the program.  Also, get a post that adds N# to each tool change, allows the operator to memorize specific features that may need to be adjusted often.  

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#1 recommendation I have is this > Read the manual for your machine. Every machine/control combination is slightly different, and I am always shocked and amazed by how many people have only ever been "told what to do by the other people in their shop", as the only form of training.

The manual will explain cutter compensation, for both Diameter/Wear, and TLO (Tool Length Offset).

Not sure what kind of machines you've got, but if you have any Haas machines, they have a ton of fantastic documentation online for beginners. Even if you have other machine types, their "Programming Workbooks" are a great wealth of beginning practical knowledge for milling and turning machines. They also publish an "Answers Book", which is helpful for double checking your own work.

https://www.haascnc.com/content/dam/haascnc/en/service/manual/operator/english---mill-ngc---operator's-manual---2021.pdf

https://www.haascnc.com/content/dam/haascnc/en/service/manual/operator/english---lathe-ngc---operator's-manual---2021.pdf

https://www.haascnc.com/content/dam/haascnc/en/service/reference/programming-workbooks/mill---programming-workbook.pdf

https://www.haascnc.com/content/dam/haascnc/en/service/reference/programming-workbooks/mill---programming-workbook---answers-book.pdf

https://www.haascnc.com/content/dam/haascnc/en/service/reference/programming-workbooks/lathe---programming-workbook.pdf

https://www.haascnc.com/content/dam/haascnc/en/service/reference/programming-workbooks/lathe---programming-workbook---answers-book.pdf

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