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Job Shop Productivity Ideas


Tkrohn45
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On 10/20/2022 at 1:29 PM, neurosis said:

 

We have six verticals and one horizontal and I've been the only programmer at this shop for 20 years.  Over half of our work load is new jobs and a lot of those are one off parts so there is a constant stream of programming going through here.  I don't know what type of work you do or what the quantities are, but if I were a shop owner with 9 mills, unless we were running all molds or prototype work, I couldn't justify 7 seats of Mastercam and 7 programmers.  That sounds like a strange precarious environment.

I'm surprised that nobody at the shop you work for has taught you how to use tool offsets?  I'd love to be a fly on the wall in that shop for a few weeks.  :D   

Good luck to you. You're getting some good advise in here. 

I for some reason never saw this reply. Sounds like you have a similar shop. You could say we do prototype work of sorts. Most of our work is parts to be used together to make machines/automation. Sometimes those parts don't fit properly together and we have to modify or remake them.

I want to be able to help my owner save money by getting rid of at least a couple seats of Mastercam but I am just not sure how well that could work out. I brought up to him about letting me program parts from home in spare time and that was going to be my initial test on having one programmer. 

As far as tool offsets go, no one in my shop knows how to use them. Last week after reading some of the comment I decided to teach myself. I figured it out but now if I were to use it in my programs, and other people used my programs they might encounter problems so I probably just won't use them. 

I wish I could have someone experienced from another shop to be a fly on the wall to see specifically how we do things and give ideas but sadly not realistic.

Thanks for your advice though.

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7 minutes ago, Tkrohn45 said:

I for some reason never saw this reply. Sounds like you have a similar shop. You could say we do prototype work of sorts. Most of our work is parts to be used together to make machines/automation. Sometimes those parts don't fit properly together and we have to modify or remake them.

I want to be able to help my owner save money by getting rid of at least a couple seats of Mastercam but I am just not sure how well that could work out. I brought up to him about letting me program parts from home in spare time and that was going to be my initial test on having one programmer. 

As far as tool offsets go, no one in my shop knows how to use them. Last week after reading some of the comment I decided to teach myself. I figured it out but now if I were to use it in my programs, and other people used my programs they might encounter problems so I probably just won't use them. 

I wish I could have someone experienced from another shop to be a fly on the wall to see specifically how we do things and give ideas but sadly not realistic.

Thanks for your advice though.

Yikes!!!

I can only say what I have done in the past, not what you should or shouldn't do....

We're it me, I'd be out of there....the habits that you are going to learn in that shop are going to serve you ill.

If there is no one in that shop, including ownership, that does not know better or dare I say, the right way to do things, there is no real way to properly learn.

Most "good" machinists will agree that good habits and repeating those habits over and over again are a big key to doing well.

Good Luck in whatever your journey brings your way.

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24 minutes ago, Tkrohn45 said:

As far as tool offsets go, no one in my shop knows how to use them. Last week after reading some of the comment I decided to teach myself. I figured it out but now if I were to use it in my programs, and other people used my programs they might encounter problems so I probably just won't use them. 

 

I've never run a Mazak so anything I ask about them are out of pure ignorance.  I assume that you guys are having to set your tool lengths when you set up a new job? 

When you say that "other people used my programs they might encounter problems", if you're programming with your compensation type set to wear, there is no difference in the code other than turning on/off your diameter offset compensation.  It is just giving you the ability to regulate the change in tool diameter without having to make a change to the program and re-post. 

Another thing I'll say, and this is also out of pure ignorance as I don't know anything about the shop you work in; I can't think of a single shop that would have someone running their machines that didn't understand the concept of tool offsets so I have to wonder where these guys learned the trade.  You're really doing yourself a disservice not learning how to use them. 

Anything else I'd have to say JP has already covered.  :D  

 

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48 minutes ago, Tkrohn45 said:

I for some reason never saw this reply. Sounds like you have a similar shop. You could say we do prototype work of sorts. Most of our work is parts to be used together to make machines/automation. Sometimes those parts don't fit properly together and we have to modify or remake them.

I want to be able to help my owner save money by getting rid of at least a couple seats of Mastercam but I am just not sure how well that could work out. I brought up to him about letting me program parts from home in spare time and that was going to be my initial test on having one programmer. 

As far as tool offsets go, no one in my shop knows how to use them. Last week after reading some of the comment I decided to teach myself. I figured it out but now if I were to use it in my programs, and other people used my programs they might encounter problems so I probably just won't use them. 

I wish I could have someone experienced from another shop to be a fly on the wall to see specifically how we do things and give ideas but sadly not realistic.

Thanks for your advice though.

You need to use those offsets! Once you are comfortable using them, tell your boss you need an hour or so to train the boys how to use them then start spitting out those codes. You may get a lot of questions that 1st week, but after that it will be smooth sailing.

We have 2 Mazak 5x vertical mills, 1 Mazak vertical mill with a 4th axis, a Mazak HQR 100 (dual spindle, dual live turrets), 5 horizontal mills (multiple brands) all with Fanuc controls, 2 vertical turret lathes and 7 slant bed lathes, and 1 old HAAS vertical mill. We currently have 3 programmers, but we handle some fairly complex parts as well. When I was the only programmer we had 4 vertical mills, 2 horizontal mills, 4-5 slant beds and 3-4 vtl's. Granted we usually had repeat work that would keep at least half of the machines out of my hair, but not always.

Mazak mills can be a little tricky when using CDC, well in adjusting them in the control and you want to make sure they are all set up the same way. If you have some Fanuc controlled mills you'll want to make both controls behave the same as much as possible. We don't use wear comp and only use diameter comp instead of radius. Hence CDC and not CRC.

Any questions with the Mazak's give me a holler, I'll help any way I can. A couple of the guys here have shops with Mazaks and I'm sure will help with any questions.

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3 minutes ago, BBprecise said:

You need to use those offsets! Once you are comfortable using them, tell your boss you need an hour or so to train the boys how to use them then start spitting out those codes. You may get a lot of questions that 1st week, but after that it will be smooth sailing.

We have 2 Mazak 5x vertical mills, 1 Mazak vertical mill with a 4th axis, a Mazak HQR 100 (dual spindle, dual live turrets), 5 horizontal mills (multiple brands) all with Fanuc controls, 2 vertical turret lathes and 7 slant bed lathes, and 1 old HAAS vertical mill. We currently have 3 programmers, but we handle some fairly complex parts as well. When I was the only programmer we had 4 vertical mills, 2 horizontal mills, 4-5 slant beds and 3-4 vtl's. Granted we usually had repeat work that would keep at least half of the machines out of my hair, but not always.

Mazak mills can be a little tricky when using CDC, well in adjusting them in the control and you want to make sure they are all set up the same way. If you have some Fanuc controlled mills you'll want to make both controls behave the same as much as possible. We don't use wear comp and only use diameter comp instead of radius. Hence CDC and not CRC.

Any questions with the Mazak's give me a holler, I'll help any way I can. A couple of the guys here have shops with Mazaks and I'm sure will help with any questions.

Maybe the way I taught myself isn't the best way to do it, because it seems like using tool offsets could get very messy. I also am not sure I'd be able to train the other guys here, they are stuck in their own ways, and I have only been here a year. I have some say though because my dad has worked here for 25 years but he is also one of the ones stuck in his own way and he thinks using tool offsets would be too much of a headache. 

As far as comparison in machines, you have much more going on. ALL of our machines are Mazak vertical mills with only 3 Axis, besides the wire edm. 

I just am lost as far as trying to figure out how to help out this shop with productivity, especially when I feel that most here won't accept change. 

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49 minutes ago, JParis said:

We're it me, I'd be out of there....the habits that you are going to learn in that shop are going to serve you ill.

In agreement with John on this. Any bad habits you pick up now will only make it difficult for you in other shops.

49 minutes ago, JParis said:

If there is no one in that shop, including ownership, that does not know better or dare I say, the right way to do things, there is no real way to properly learn.

I will say that there isn't always just "one" right way. Sometimes the "right way" is whatever way is needed to get the job done if you're in a time pinch. Had to do some things a little crude on occasion, but only when in a time crunch. Which will happen.

49 minutes ago, JParis said:

Most "good" machinists will agree that good habits and repeating those habits over and over again are a big key to doing well.

 

Exactly! Your problem seems to be that you're in a shop that is full of button pushers will no knowledge to give except for the "How they've always done things here in the past" advice which isn't always very useful. Like yesterday, my supervisor pulled me from programming to go set up a simple task of programming a polishing wheel for c'bore face on our HAAS and setting it up and getting a part off. I did the program at the control, used an existing vise and clamped up on the part. All I had to do was tram a bore to set the work offset, qualify a tool and go. I trammed the bore, set the offset then handwheeled the indicator away from the bore. Then in MDI I programmed the indicator to rapid to X-.1Y-.1 of the workoffset, then programmed it to feed to X0Y0 at 20ipm. My supervisor asked my why I did that. Told him I always do that (been in the trade for 27yrs), it's to check the accuracy/repeatability of the machine and take any backlash out. If I have to move the offset I repeat the process.

This is my own .02c so take it for what it's worth.

 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Tkrohn45 said:

Maybe the way I taught myself isn't the best way to do it, because it seems like using tool offsets could get very messy. I also am not sure I'd be able to train the other guys here, they are stuck in their own ways, and I have only been here a year. I have some say though because my dad has worked here for 25 years but he is also one of the ones stuck in his own way and he thinks using tool offsets would be too much of a headache. 

As far as comparison in machines, you have much more going on. ALL of our machines are Mazak vertical mills with only 3 Axis, besides the wire edm. 

I just am lost as far as trying to figure out how to help out this shop with productivity, especially when I feel that most here won't accept change. 

There is nothing wrong with self teaching, but too verify you're doing it the way that is least likely to cause problems with other machinists/programmers is needed. I will bet this is how every guy running machines at your shop learned things, but they never asked questions if what they was doing makes sense or "Best Practice".

If you cannot convince the powers that be that your way is better (provide examples) then as John said, cut bait and run. They don't want to improve, they just want to keep status quo.

To me changing a program every time you need to adjust the size of a part, by reposting a toolpath then pulling the program out of the control, update it with new toolpath, then loading it back in to control and dry running new toolpath (I assume this is done after any/every edit as it's SOP here) is way more of a headache and more likely to scrap a part. How much time does it take for you to make an edit to adjust a dimension from the time you are told you need to make a change to when a part comes off that is now correct? What control is on your Mazaks? We have the Smooth series on all of ours so there may be some differences if you have a previous generation, but probably not much difference.

As for trying to help with productivity, see my last sentence in my 2nd paragraph.

15 minutes ago, Tkrohn45 said:

Maybe the way I taught myself isn't the best way to do it, because it seems like using tool offsets could get very messy. I also am not sure I'd be able to train the other guys here, they are stuck in their own ways, and I have only been here a year. I have some say though because my dad has worked here for 25 years but he is also one of the ones stuck in his own way and he thinks using tool offsets would be too much of a headache. 

As far as comparison in machines, you have much more going on. ALL of our machines are Mazak vertical mills with only 3 Axis, besides the wire edm. 

I just am lost as far as trying to figure out how to help out this shop with productivity, especially when I feel that most here won't accept change. 

If you have a tool probe on your machines setting tool offsets is super easy. Even without there are ways to make it simpler and I'd be willing to explain how we do it on machines with tool probes.

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I would dare say that anyone worth their salt in this trade was yelled at or at the very least firmly corrected as an apprentice. Are there even apprentices anymore? I see so many guys barley able to use a pair of calipers correctly anymore. I got yelled at for stirring my coffee too long way back in the day. haha It was my Dad so I had to take it.

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38 minutes ago, cruzila said:

I would dare say that anyone worth their salt in this trade was yelled at or at the very least firmly corrected as an apprentice.

When I was coming in to the trade it wasn't uncommon to get screamed at by the foreman or shop owner until their face turned purple.  If you even raise your voice to someone or make a sarcastic comment these days you have to worry about someone needing personal days in a safe space for being verbally assaulted. 

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If I was working in a job shop, running a mill, there is no way I would want to work without cutter comp. Use control comp, or wear comp, it doesn't matter. Here is why I say that:

1) The posted code is easier to read. The dimensions on the print, match the program, and it's easier to track down any errors or typos. No need to do backward math to figure what is going on.

2) Control of critical sizes. If I need to make something bigger or smaller, I can make that change on the control, in mere seconds. No need to re-post, delete the old program and copy it back in. By the time you do those steps, I could have the feature finished.

3) Re-ground tooling. If you setup on the job in the future, and need to use a .725 endmill, instead of a .750 endmill, it's no big deal. Just type the comp in and go. 

This all seems to me, like it would make running the current job and in the future, the same job, easier. A guy can add a tooling list in the header of the program to document the tools used for future reference. 

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When I was coming in to the trade it wasn't uncommon to get screamed at by the foreman or shop owner until their face turned purple.  If you even raise your voice to someone or make a sarcastic comment these days you have to worry about someone needing personal days in a safe space for being verbally assaulted. 

  I am glad I learned the trade 35 years ago when there were old timers to keep you in line and getting told how to do it the right way!

   

Quote

Are there even apprentices anymore?

  You can't find a competent person who wants to learn and work!

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5 hours ago, Corey Hampshire said:

If I was working in a job shop, running a mill, there is no way I would want to work without cutter comp. Use control comp, or wear comp, it doesn't matter. Here is why I say that:

1) The posted code is easier to read. The dimensions on the print, match the program, and it's easier to track down any errors or typos. No need to do backward math to figure what is going on.

2) Control of critical sizes. If I need to make something bigger or smaller, I can make that change on the control, in mere seconds. No need to re-post, delete the old program and copy it back in. By the time you do those steps, I could have the feature finished.

3) Re-ground tooling. If you setup on the job in the future, and need to use a .725 endmill, instead of a .750 endmill, it's no big deal. Just type the comp in and go. 

This all seems to me, like it would make running the current job and in the future, the same job, easier. A guy can add a tooling list in the header of the program to document the tools used for future reference. 

I'm going to disagree with you on that one.  40, 30, even maybe 20 years ago, sure, control comp was viable based on the slow typical machines and simple programming of the day.  These days IMHO wear comp is mandatory; if you're doing anything else you're leaving money on the table and asking for problems.  I won't go into detail, as this has been beat to death in other threads.

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13 hours ago, Matthew Hajicek - Singularity said:

I'm going to disagree with you on that one.  40, 30, even maybe 20 years ago, sure, control comp was viable based on the slow typical machines and simple programming of the day.  These days IMHO wear comp is mandatory; if you're doing anything else you're leaving money on the table and asking for problems.  I won't go into detail, as this has been beat to death in other threads.

Not sure how using one over the other leaves money on the table, but to each his own.  I've programmed say roughly 18 of the 27yrs I've been in the trade and have never run in to a situation where I couldn't use control comp. To me it's personal preference and is generally decided on by how a shop has handled it in the past.

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1 hour ago, BBprecise said:

Not sure how using one over the other leaves money on the table, but to each his own. 

Typically, if there are issues, it is almost always by someone either not entering the correct info into the offsets or forgetting to change the info in the offsets..That scraps parts which in turn costs $$$

Also, if you're using regrinds in dynamic cutting, you are eventually going to run into a chip clearance issue and clog the endmill, usually breaking and the scrapping the part.

Setting thew wrong tool into the program thinking you can use a 3/8's when the program calls for a 3/4 becasue you can type in half the diameter.

There are just so many reasons NOT to use Control Comp any longer.  That has been discussed ad infintum on this forum on multiple occasions.  :)

Friends don't let friends use Control Comp...

:)

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I should have worded it differently I guess. Use wear or control comp, it doesn't matter to ME. I see what you guys are saying as far as potential problems with control comp. I agree those things can happen. You guys provided solid examples of what could go wrong with control comp.

I have been out the job shop arena for about 12 years and everything I do now is wear. I have used both in the past and both will get the job done. The point of my post wasn't one is better than the other, rather that it needs to be used. 

For me, if I were starting in a job shop today, it wouldn't bother me to use either one. One thing is for sure, I would be using some form of cutter comp for critical features. I think it would all depend on the work being done, the skill set of the guy behind the controller and how apt things were to get screwed up. 

 

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23 hours ago, Tkrohn45 said:

Maybe the way I taught myself isn't the best way to do it, because it seems like using tool offsets could get very messy. I also am not sure I'd be able to train the other guys here, they are stuck in their own ways, and I have only been here a year. I have some say though because my dad has worked here for 25 years but he is also one of the ones stuck in his own way and he thinks using tool offsets would be too much of a headache. 

As far as comparison in machines, you have much more going on. ALL of our machines are Mazak vertical mills with only 3 Axis, besides the wire edm. 

I just am lost as far as trying to figure out how to help out this shop with productivity, especially when I feel that most here won't accept change. 

It's a delicate situation in my experience. Convincing some of the old-timers (or young-timers thought by old-timers) of "new is better" seems to always be perceived as a personal insult. Even when they use HSS feeds and speeds on fancy carbide tools, cause "they've done it that way for decades and it works"

I think the best way is to create your own little island where you work in the "new way". Once it starts to show in your productivity, they will start to look for things to be negative about. Once you start to be noticed by people higher up, they will dislike you for it. Once you get more freedom cause you've proven your ways to work, they will find something else to bitch about. Once you get through all that you might get some on your side, but it's a long and exhausting process.

Most important of all is good backup. Make sure your boss supports you and make sure he does that OPENLY. There is no point in backup if it's only behind closed doors but back on the work floor you're on your own.

And if anyone starts about re-inventing the wheel, just remind them that there is an entire business based on that. Else we would still roll around on circular slabs of stone.

 

My best wishes to you!

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1 hour ago, JParis said:

Typically, if there are issues, it is almost always by someone either not entering the correct info into the offsets or forgetting to change the info in the offsets..That scraps parts which in turn costs $$$

Also, if you're using regrinds in dynamic cutting, you are eventually going to run into a chip clearance issue and clog the endmill, usually breaking and the scrapping the part.

Setting thew wrong tool into the program thinking you can use a 3/8's when the program calls for a 3/4 becasue you can type in half the diameter.

There are just so many reasons NOT to use Control Comp any longer.  That has been discussed ad infintum on this forum on multiple occasions.  :)

Friends don't let friends use Control Comp...

:)

Oh I know it's been discussed more time then I can count. It was the way Matt worded his comment that made me question it.

As to which is better, it's all preference IMHO. You cannot take the human error out of everything and human error can scrap a part no matter which form of comp you use.

But some form of comp should be implemented regardless.

For dynamic milling we only use regrinds up to .015" under nominal size for that reason. Probably could go smaller but .015" u/s always works. Typically I always add a comp pass to the roughing tool to smooth out the walls regardless just to eliminate the ripple effect on a finished wall.

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20 hours ago, The Chipmaker said:

  I am glad I learned the trade 35 years ago when there were old timers to keep you in line and getting told how to do it the right way!

   

  You can't find a competent person who wants to learn and work!

Right now, it's been difficult to even get a resume, much less someone willing. I am glad that I am not doing the hiring!

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 10/21/2022 at 12:14 PM, Aaron Eberhard said:

Yep.  I made a little video to show how to do it:

 

Someone responded and it reminded me I never added my other tip to this..  You can drag and drop a Mastercam .mcam (.mcam-operations) file directly onto the Toolpaths Manager and it'll open the import dialog, so you don't even have to go through right-click > import > browse if that's faster for you.

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