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Anyone else noticed that 5axis-drill can change direction when editing a solid body?


Tegheim83
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We have sometimes noticed that when editing or modifing a solid body a 5-axis toolpath on through-holes suddenly change direction?

It was an issue already in Mastercam 2022, and this is what Mastercam told us then:

"This is an issue that was discovered in Mastercam 2022, as you have seen with this customer. We have resolved the issue under R-27849 in Mastercam 2023. Unfortunately, it was fixed after the last update for Mastercam 2022. Both scenarios mentioned (backplot incorrect and flipping after selection) are covered in the same request. The cause was the solid and the toolpath not keeping the start and endpoints of the holes in sync.
There is no real workaround other than to backplot the toolpaths and verify the motion. On the plus side it doesn’t happen all that frequently but it is still a bad situation for the customer because they can’t always trust the toolpath display."

Yesterday, it did it again, and we crashed.
Had done the one piece, but needed to adjust another feature.
When we adjusted the model, the tree went red. We regenerated, and posted it all again.

When we had passed the feature that we modified, we supposed to be safe, because rest of the program we already milled earlier, and hadn't changed.

But then it had reversed a arrow in 5-axis drill-op, making it F MAX through the part and trying to start on the bottom plane.

We were lucky, only a part, a drill, holder and soft jaws in the trash.


We have been in contact with our retailer, but I'm curios if anyone else had this problem?

Today when I programmed two parts, one Left hand, and one Right hand, I programmed the first.
The used the model prep-command "move", and moved that through-hole thats the only difference in these two part.
Regenerated, and voila. The 5-axis drill-op turned it upside down.

But today I was aware of the problem since yesterday, and found it before it crashed.

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I have seen random arrow changing direction since 2021, or at least that's when I think they changed drilling. But fortunately for my machines we use Vericut, and or Camplete. Ive actually started to venture away from using solids to generate toolpaths, Which is sad because I truly love the simplicity of it. But every time I attach a path to the model, If I modify something on the model everything attached blows up, and models need to have history removed then regenerated in the solids tree, before I can regenerate toolpaths, Sometimes you can not save because of a dirty model, and then you have to do all the above mentioned. This sucks especially as I'm heading out the door at the end of a day. 

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28 minutes ago, cncappsjames said:

Reason # 51,384 to employ G-Code based  collision checking software...

🍿

 

I'm pretty sure either Mastercam backplot or Verify would have shown this error.

I have never had a crash that wasn't apparent in Mastercam had I not been in a hurry and taken the time to look more closely

Actually, I'm surprised the post didn't scream bloody murder,  give an axis over travel alarm, and refuse to post the offending toolpath.

I know the 5X posts I buy from Postability would have stopped posting at the bad toolpath

 

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This is the reason I still create wireframe and surface geometry for many of my operations. Use "Hole Axis", and make the function generate centerline holes, with points at the bottom of where you are drilling. You can use the Hole Axis function to extend the line beyond the hole bottom as well, if needed. More work for selection, but I absolutely hate having paths that change geometry on me, just because I do something to a solid. The only time I really use Solids for driving a toolpath, is if I'm creating an Opti-rough path, and just selecting the whole model for roughing.

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7 minutes ago, gcode said:

I'm pretty sure either Mastercam backplot or Verify would have shown this error.

I have never had a crash that wasn't apparent in Mastercam had I not been in a hurry and taken the time to look more closely

Actually, I'm surprised the post didn't scream bloody murder,  give an axis over travel alarm, and refuse to post the offending toolpath.

I know the 5X posts I buy from Postability would have stopped posting at the bad toolpath

 

Yes, both backplot and Verify shows the crash.
Problem is, that when you went in to the office, changing a contour-milling operation, you only look at that.
Well, not anymore, but still.
All the others operations was good running the first part. So your focus is on the one thing you edit.

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I forgot to mention.

When loking at the entities choosed, the arrow point at the opposite side from what it's doing.

First picture showing backplot, with the drill buried from wrong direction.
Second picture is when I check what entities is selected.

This is the old file from 2022 where we found the issue at first.

drill-01.png

drill-02.png

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2 hours ago, Tegheim83 said:

We have sometimes noticed that when editing or modifing a solid body a 5-axis toolpath on through-holes suddenly change direction?

It was an issue already in Mastercam 2022, and this is what Mastercam told us then:

"This is an issue that was discovered in Mastercam 2022, as you have seen with this customer. We have resolved the issue under R-27849 in Mastercam 2023. Unfortunately, it was fixed after the last update for Mastercam 2022. Both scenarios mentioned (backplot incorrect and flipping after selection) are covered in the same request. The cause was the solid and the toolpath not keeping the start and endpoints of the holes in sync.
There is no real workaround other than to backplot the toolpaths and verify the motion. On the plus side it doesn’t happen all that frequently but it is still a bad situation for the customer because they can’t always trust the toolpath display."

Yesterday, it did it again, and we crashed.
Had done the one piece, but needed to adjust another feature.
When we adjusted the model, the tree went red. We regenerated, and posted it all again.

When we had passed the feature that we modified, we supposed to be safe, because rest of the program we already milled earlier, and hadn't changed.

But then it had reversed a arrow in 5-axis drill-op, making it F MAX through the part and trying to start on the bottom plane.

We were lucky, only a part, a drill, holder and soft jaws in the trash.


We have been in contact with our retailer, but I'm curios if anyone else had this problem?

Today when I programmed two parts, one Left hand, and one Right hand, I programmed the first.
The used the model prep-command "move", and moved that through-hole thats the only difference in these two part.
Regenerated, and voila. The 5-axis drill-op turned it upside down.

But today I was aware of the problem since yesterday, and found it before it crashed.

 

Customer just crashed a machine with this very thing in the last few weeks. Made a simple change and everyone got in hurry and tore up a spindle in the process. Never and I will repeat never re-post a program and take anything for granted. Stop recheck and stop again and recheck. CAV is there for a reason if not using it then Stop and run it slow. No program is ever 100% in my eyes until it was been run. I have seen a 40 million line program look good in CAV and 2 lines would have crashed the machine. If it weren't for a damn good machinist it would have.

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Hey Tegheim83, this is logged as R-32862 for your ref. When Model Prep editing a solid body, it essentially deletes and remakes the face that the holemaking operations are tied to. We have to rematch the solid with the op in the background and obviously there are shortcomings in the current match, though we are doing much better than we used to and this is a big area of focus.

Can you please send me the file that did this, saved in the state where the issue is present? It will be valuable in our testing efforts to ensure we are considering all rebuild scenarios.

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23 minutes ago, crazy^millman said:

Cause and effect going on here. Make a change to the solid model then expect things to go crazy land.

Sorry guys, but solids are still a time saver for certain programming.

Time-saver, absolutely. Reliable? Only if you have G-Code verification to catch issues. Of course, that goes with anything though. I've caught issues with surface paths where a surface became "unselected" from a toolpath, and caused the tool to "dive" down into the hollow of the part. You're right when you say "verify the G-code, or run it slow". And for simple models, sure, I will occasionally program from the solid. I really like the new "automatic 2D profile from solid" for programming Lathe parts. That is really nice. But, I still catch myself wondering if it is working 100%.

For anything where I am programming from a Solid, which is already in-process, and I need to do a push-pull, or edit the model in some way, I'll typically copy the solid to a new level, change the color, and then "remove history" on that model, before making my edits. This can be a pain, because you can end up with multiple copies of the solid (similar, but modified) in the same file, so I usually only do this on smaller solids. Unfortunately, there is no bullet-proof solution when it comes to editing a solid with toolpaths already attached to the models...

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56 minutes ago, motor-vater said:

Im so glad to know I'm not alone in my decision to still use wireframe. I was afraid to tell people because I thought they would call me a Dinosaur

They can call me a dinosaur if they want. If I have hundreds of operations based on wireframe based on a solid, and then I get a new revision of the solid (which is often), I have total control over the rechaining process. Is there a magic button that will rechain everything if everything was done with solid chaining only?

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48 minutes ago, SlaveCam said:

They can call me a dinosaur if they want. If I have hundreds of operations based on wireframe based on a solid, and then I get a new revision of the solid (which is often), I have total control over the rechaining process. Is there a magic button that will rechain everything if everything was done with solid chaining only?

EXACTLY!!! I have tried a model based program, and then tried to incorporate a changed version through the change recognition inside the info tab, mind you this was an experiment with a very simple model maybe 15 toolpaths just to see how to use the change recognition option and OMG did I almost loose my mind. Sounded like a great idea to learn something new until I had several hours into trying to figure it out with less then optimal results... Never again

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Quote

Im so glad to know I'm not alone in my decision to still use wireframe. I was afraid to tell people because I thought they would call me a Dinosaur

"Why do you do it that way? Isn't that old school?"  I  say it may be old school. but I know what works. Takes a little longer, but I can be relatively sure of the outcome.

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I use all 3 methods; wireframe, solids, and surfaces. Each in specific scenarios and for different reasons. 

As much as I don't like CATIA for CAM, I do really like that I can drive toolpaths from surface/solid walls instead of edge curves  that may not chain properly or having to create wireframe,  then I just set a lower and upper boundary face for the heights and depths. 

 

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Just ran into this issue doing a process review for a new customer. Bought too small of a machine to machine the parts and trying to fake the part in. I had it 6" off the table and needed to move it 8" off the table. Most the drilling operation holes reversed going through the bottom of part and the Wrap shape lost its mine. I have to go back into the solid and pick the direction arrows and auto cursor loves grabbing whatever it wants so I have to turn them all off. Sort is losing its mind, but I am not going to make a hole axis for every hole. 

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On 11/19/2022 at 4:29 PM, crazy^millman said:

Just ran into this issue doing a process review for a new customer. Bought too small of a machine to machine the parts and trying to fake the part in. I had it 6" off the table and needed to move it 8" off the table. Most the drilling operation holes reversed going through the bottom of part and the Wrap shape lost its mine. I have to go back into the solid and pick the direction arrows and auto cursor loves grabbing whatever it wants so I have to turn them all off. Sort is losing its mind, but I am not going to make a hole axis for every hole. 

Sometimes the arrow direction doesn't align to the actual backplot. Thats frustrating.
But, when doing a regen on a green operation, it changes. 

About sorting. Don't get me started. It havn' worked properly with solids for since 2021-version.
When drilling 2D, and want to go "point to point", it doesn't care. Nothing is changing at all.
Have given up on that...

But with all that said. I would not want to go back to wireframe, or making hole axis for every hole.

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5 hours ago, Tegheim83 said:

Sometimes the arrow direction doesn't align to the actual backplot. Thats frustrating.
But, when doing a regen on a green operation, it changes. 

About sorting. Don't get me started. It havn' worked properly with solids for since 2021-version.
When drilling 2D, and want to go "point to point", it doesn't care. Nothing is changing at all.
Have given up on that...

But with all that said. I would not want to go back to wireframe, or making hole axis for every hole.

2023 had an issue with point to point sorting Start Point respecting that should be solved in Update 3. 

Solid hole default sorting when bulk adding items is something that we have a plan to address in a much smarter manner. 🙂

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  • 4 weeks later...
On 11/21/2022 at 5:47 PM, Chally72 said:

2023 had an issue with point to point sorting Start Point respecting that should be solved in Update 3. 

Solid hole default sorting when bulk adding items is something that we have a plan to address in a much smarter manner. 🙂

Maybe I'll try to start using that sorting again then 🙂
Always on the latest updates, so I got the Update 3 a while ago.

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On 11/19/2022 at 10:29 AM, crazy^millman said:

Just ran into this issue doing a process review for a new customer. Bought too small of a machine to machine the parts and trying to fake the part in. I had it 6" off the table and needed to move it 8" off the table. Most the drilling operation holes reversed going through the bottom of part and the Wrap shape lost its mine. I have to go back into the solid and pick the direction arrows and auto cursor loves grabbing whatever it wants so I have to turn them all off. Sort is losing its mind, but I am not going to make a hole axis for every hole. 

This is where the automation in Hole Axis can really be beneficial.

> Set a color for a give hole size/type. For example, I picked Green for my 1/4-20 tap drill sized holes.

>> [CTRL + Click], to select all holes of matching diameter. (I have my lines set to create a point at the bottom only, and extend 0.500 above, and either "at depth" or "by a certain amount for Thru holes".

>> Press Apply to finish creating these line/point vectors for a given hole diameter.

> Right-Click in the Graphics Window, and change your color to something else. (Blue, Red, Orange, Etc.)

>> Repeat the process, using [CTRL + Click] to select the net set of matching diameters.

NOTE: You can also [CTRL + SHIFT + Click] to select matching diameters and vectors (plane/direction).

Makes it easy to generate dozens or hundreds of Hole Axis Line/Point sets when setting up drilling operations on a large solid model. I know you deal with parts that are way off the scale, that may have a couple thousand holes, so this may not be worth it with your workflow Ron, but considering how bad the results are when you must move the geometry, or the WCS Origin, it may be worth it in some cases to do the prep work up-front with Hole Axis, versus having a drilled hole axis reverse when you're already done with all the programming, and just trying to update the location on the machine...

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