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5-Axis Mill


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Hi all,

My company is looking to get in to the 5-axis game with a GANESH 5X-300(VMC-4020). At $149,000. We though it is reasonably priced.

This machine has a table-table 5-axis attachment with option for a ***or or Fanuc control. Personally I have never run a GANESH machine or a 5-axis either but I seem to think that a head-head 5-axis is a better option.

Can anybody please comment on the GANESH Mill or the option of a table-table vs. head-head 5-axis.

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The whole point of adding extra axis to a machine is to be able to reduce the number of set ups to make a part.

Sounds to me like they are offering a 3 axis machine with a five axis table bolted to it.

I would check out the angular travel and how the 4th and 5th axis are integrated into the system.

Can you get continous output from all axis simultaneously or only indexed output from some of the axis?

The problem with Head-Head machines is that there angular travel is restricted in your two additional axis. They are also less rigid due to all the additional "joints" and all the extra weight high up on the frame(top heavy)and tend to be slow; moving all that mass around so high up.

There are some true high speed head - head machines with good angular travel which don't (because of the high speed spindle) require as much rigidity....your probably looking at $600,000 min. for one of these, plus you open up an entirly new can of worms for tool balancing.

Trunion type machines have a wider angular range and better rigidity and are generally faster. We have Matsuras here and although we have had a few problems they seem to be be performing well.

I think they come in around $350,000 - $400,000 per spindle.

Generally you get what you pay for in machines so if you are only paying $150,000 for a 5 axis machine I wouldn't expect a stellar performance.

I wouldn't go that cheap on a 3 axis machine if I were buying for my shop.....which I don't it should be said.....

Cheers

Nick

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Thank you all for your kind remarks. In the end it is true as the saying goes, "you get what you pay for" and I'm going to have to convince these people that cheaper is not better and more expensive won't solve all their problems either.

As with any major purchase you'll have to look at several options and I think I'll look at Hass next.

Thanks again.

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mchin-pilot,

I can only assume that your experience with a range of machines is limited.

I have run everything from Makinos to Fadals and the difference between them is huge.

Cheaper machines wear out faster, break more often are less rigid.....I could go on.

All this translates into loss of spindle time (and therefore profit) on cheaper machines as you address these issues.

Using a ballpark figure of a $2000 loss for every shift a spindle is down it doesn't take long to close the "price gap" between the cheap and more expensive machines.

Not to mention the loss of customer relations due to late parts......

Cheers

Nick

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Hooya,Roku-Roku,Femco,Durga,Shizuca,Bridgeport,

Kitamura,Viper,My Center, Hitachiseike,Moriseike,

Fadal,Hass.

I think I have had some what of a range of VMC and HMV up to 4-Axis mill and lathes experience. I understand the difference between Ferrari and a corolla. My problem is our budget and the learning curve associated with 5-axis Machining while not loosing my job as the will expect immediate results if they make any type of capital investment big or small.

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Guest CNC Apps Guy 1

quote:

cheaper is not better and more expensive won't solve all their problems either.

That's a very good point that bears repeating.

 

Many people take that approach, "just spend money". Part of my job entails educating people during the process of a machine tool sale. My whole "angle" if you want to call it that, is "Let's look at what you want to do with it.". That should be first and foremost INMSHO. Are you going to go after wing spars or hydraulic manifolds? There are specific machines to handle specific tasks. There is no "one size fits all" 5-Axis. If a salesman is pitching their only solution as THE solution, run as fast as you can AWAY from him. I've seen Machine Tool Salesmen do damage to companies before by reccommending the wrong "solution(s)". Proceed cautiously!!! rtfaq.gif

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quote:

__________________________________________________

Can you get continous output from all axis simultaneously or only indexed output from some of the axis?

__________________________________________________

 

Nick, I was only trying to disclose my experience with VMCs and HMCs and didn't mean to rev up my horses at you. Your point is very good as we are trying to produce small to medium size prototype parts that require simultaneous 5-axis movement.

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I agree with James- depends on what you want to do with it....I also agree that a trunnion is probably more versatile and stiffer than a head machine. The step from even complex 3d sufacing to 5-axis is incredible! There only so many ways to do something with a 3axis machine, but with 5, it almost limitless, therefore can be confusing..the programming involved and learning the limits of positioning on your machine, as well as its language, make for very steep learning curve. I know, I just did it myself. I am lucky to have started with Hermle (Hi Matt!) and very good control -Heidenhain- that makes the setup much easier than most. For instance, id you are surface-finishing a part in 3axis, you have 3 or 4 programming strategies that will work. With 5axis- look at how many different ways you choose to run the toolpath, AND control the tool axis positions----about 30 ways....which is right? which works best? which will keep the machine moving fastest and reach everywhere? Can be daunting. Also you NEED to SPEND MONEY on a POST and SIMULATION PACKAGE!!!

I have Camplete for both, and without it, my 700k machine would have been wrecked many times. Sometimes, clearance between tool-fixture-table-spindle can be as little as .010"- if your sim package isn't accurate, thats a crash!

In my limited experience, a better machine pays dividends by making the transition easier and get through the work a lot faster and more reliably.

 

For me, a small job shop, getting it done is what makes it work. No fighting rotation points, tool lengths, setup postions, programming restrictions- anything that makes the job easier is worth it in time payback and results.

 

my.02, fwiw...

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Guest CNC Apps Guy 1

Don't forget to consider Matsuura. They have palletized and non-palletized 5-Axis Machines. Matsuura was doing 5-Axis and doing it WELL, LONG before Mori even thought of it. We have a customer with one fo their new :cough: "MAM Killers" :cough: ROFLMAO. Let's just say it can't cut it's way out of a paper bag and leave it at that. They need to go back to the drawing board on that one. ROFLMAO!!!

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Really comes down to the work. I would never try to hold .0005 on a 5 Axis head machine. I see people trying it all the time and not having much luck. Holding .001 no problem, but like what was said you start talking about all the mass and it has to have flex or you could not run the machine. People do not think about a 10" to 20" gauge length from the center of rotation either. Take a 20" long gauge length tool. for every .001 in degree error at the tip the overlap on a 1" tool will be .0003 step from one step of the endmill over to the next. Take any head to head machine and put an indicator on the spindle and then just push it with your hand for every .001 it moves on the dial the machine has .003 degree worth of error translating back to what you are machining.

 

Take a trunnion machine and the pivots are closer they are usually dual supported which is stronger and more rigid. Seen an OKK brand new Trunnion style 500mm go for $240k. I have seen used Mori, Mazak, DMG, and other Trunnion machine going for $140 to $200k late model 2007 up to 2009 in the last couple months. I would take a used machine over that new GANESH any day of the week plus Saturday or Sunday.

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I think Steve has nailed it.

One of the most difficult things to deal with is mangement without sharp end experience.

Simply buying a machine and plugging it in doesn't automatically give you profit. Whenever you move up a notch in technology it doesn't become easier it becomes more complicated - the post and simulation software are great examples.

Unfortunately some people are on the never ending quest for the one toolpath/tool/machine that is going to solve all their problems.....it has come to my attention that in this game there is rarely if ever a "free lunch" - just pile the material in the general vicinity of the machine and the parts will make themselves!!

I always try and talk about real costs in spindle downtime, as losses off the bottom line tend to get the attention of the management.

Good luck on your mission!!

Steve we have a local company who were the first on the block with Makino Mag4s, when they delivered the first machine they also delivered a pallet of spindle cartridges. They went through several on their learning curve....and they have some very talented and experienced machinists, programmers and managers!!

Cheers

Nick

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We've got 2 Hermle Mills - a C40u and an older C600i - both with Heidenhain TNC controls (stay away from the Millplus IMO) and we couldn't be happier with them. The accuracy and rigidity are excellent and lots of horsepower/torque for a 18000 RPM Direct Drive spindle. If you could afford it I would definetly recommend a Hermle. In-House has a very solid post for the Heidenhain Trunnion Models too.

 

HTH

Josh

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FWIW, I just looked on the Ganesh website.

A lot of the range is identical to the XYZ machine tools (UK) arm of southwestern industries (prototrak).

These are made in taiwan by King-Rich cnc machine tools, and brought to the uk to have either the prototrak or seimens controls fitted.

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Matt, I have a c40u with a pallet changer and 800mm table- I thought that was pretty big till I saw the C60..!! Lucky you to have such good stuff to work with....

 

Nick, I can't imagine a pallet load of spindles- I'm still on my first one- thanks to a good sim package (Camplete) I know James is believer in Camplete also, and his Matsuura's are good machines.

 

Ron would would definitely be good guy to consult with also, - he has seen a lot of 5x stuff...

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