5-Axis Mill

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

I'm a true believer in CAMplete. Saved my bacon on fixture and part clearance on some iffy sized parts. Their support is unparalelled in my experience.

[Nick Eaton]

Hi Steve,

These are 30,000 spindles with 4 figure feedrates. What wouldn't even be considered a crash on a 20K machine can be death to the spindle. They really had to tighten up there verification procedures to meet the rerquirements. Also the machines were a relatively new product at the time so there were various bugs in the system that had to be sorted out....I believe Makino helped them out with all this. They are flying now tho'....!!

We have Matsuuras with Camplete....as I said before it seems to be a pretty good set up. I've run plenty of Matsuuras and have always liked them. I haven't stepped up to the plate on our 5ax yet....we've also got plenty of 4ax machines to keep going and we have a couple of guys with 5ax experience.

Cheers

Nick

[Mic]

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We have 2 c60u's in the toolroom and number of c40u's in production

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C60U? Don't you mean C600U. The C60U has not yet been released.

[Steve Hattori]

Ah, I wondered about the C60- I just heard about it myself.... It is probly too large for a toolroom..haha!

[garf]

+1

 

The C60U is nothing but announced. (IMO)

U can see it in the newest "insights":

http://www.hermle.de/ablage/med_00000639_1...S_I_2010_EN.pdf

For me the control looks like a dummy yet.

But i am on the in-house exhibition in Gosheim in 2 weeks. I tell u, when i see a C60U.

 

 

bye

garf

[Mic]

quote:

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For me the control looks like a dummy yet.

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The hole machine looks like a dummy

 

It's a computer image and not the real machine.

 

I beat that the prototype is being assembled at the moment.

[Bruce Caulley]

Only 20 tools on a dedicated 5ax machine??? I've used more than that on only one face of a part before.

 

Bruce

[Steve Hattori]

Bruce, standard is 50 tools with extensions up to 187, I believe....

[3DMASTER]

Hi all,

I'm also looking at a YCM FX-350A with a Heidenhain iTNC 530 Control At Just under 205k seems like a bargain compare to the Hermle?

[Mic]

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Hi all, I'm also looking at a YCM FX-350A with a Heidenhain iTNC 530 Control At Just under 205k seems like a bargain compare to the Hermle?

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This is because you can't compare this machine with a Hermle.

 

Pay peanuts and get monkey's.

 

The YMC is a 3 axis Taiwan machine with a 4/5th axis table put on top. The Hermle is German machine and build as a real 5 axis machine from the beginning.

[GoetzInd]

http://www.haascnc.com/VMC_Price_5AXISTRUN...#5AXISTreePrice

[Josh T™]

quote:

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This is because you can't compare this machine with a Hermle.

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+1000

 

Sounds like you're set on a tight budget man. I'd go with a Haas. If you're going mediocre at least go with a machine with good support.

 

VF3 with a trunnion sounds like you're best bet.

[Mic]

I don't know about DMG's support in the states, but they sure have some good priced machines.

 

http://www.gildemeister.com/de,fraesmaschi...nd?opendocument

 

This DMU 50 comes with a fully loaded Heidenhain iTNC530 at a starting price of just under 100k Euro.

[Josh T™]

It's DMG/Mori Seiki here in the states. One of our plants here in SC has several Deckel Maho head-head & table-table machines. They are very solid but may still be out of your price range.

 

Again, if you go this route I'd stay with the Heidenhain TNC530i control.

[Mic]

quote:

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Deckel Maho head-head

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Don't you mean head-table? I've never seen a DMG head-head machine.

 

quote:

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Again, if you go this route I'd stay with the Heidenhain TNC530i control

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+1000

 

This is properly the easiest and best controller on the marked for 5X machines. CYCL DEF 19/PLANE and M128 makes live so much easier. You can put your part anywhere on the table and still use the same program.

 

Touch probe and tool measuring cycles is also a piece of cake on this controller.

[Josh T™]

Sorry... meant head-table.

 

Mic is dead on. The Cycle 19 (Datum transformation), M128 (kinematics) and the probing cycles are awesome. If you get one with the Laser Tool Setter you'll be a "sack o' hell"!

 

We bought the Heidehain Trunnion (table-table) post from In-house and after a little modification (mostly for personal taste and the ability to post out for the TNC530i and the TNC430i) it works like a charm. The only downfall about purchasing this post was the educational value. One of the main reasons I bought this post was to learn the coding for the Cycle 19 and M128 functions. Low and behold it's all in binary. I understand that they have proprietary info in there posts but I was dissapointed in not learning much.

[Mic]

3DMASTER,

 

If your budget is <200k $ then look at Haas and DMG depending on service/support in your region.

 

If you could convince the management to get a 300k budget you could take a look at a Hermle C20U or B300U depending on part size.

 

Or perhaps the brand new Matsuura MX-520

http://www.matsuura.co.jp/english/products/mx520.shtm

I guess this also will land around 300k.

 

Both Hermle and Matsuura work together with Camplete so here you can get a proven post and simulation solution.

 

Also keep in mind that you'll need to spend some money on spindle- and table-tooling.

[Steve Hattori]

+1 on the tooling- shrink-fit FTW! But a lot of money....Even the vises for 5x are expensive...

So, the machine is only part of the equation- it really needs the best of everything else to be effective.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

quote:

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Even the vises for 5x are expensive...

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Raptor products are QUITE reasonable IMHO. Less than comparable products.

[SydwazShawn]

Or make them yourself!

 

 

[Mic]

A company close to me have recently installed a new Matsuura MAM72.

 

They purchased spindle tooling from Fahrion.

http://www.fahrion.de

Their CentroP line is really nice. Max. runout below 3my and a lot of different lengths and sizes, also slim version. Expect around 200USD per holder.

 

Table tooling was from Lang.

http://www.langwerkzeugtechnik.de/

QuickPoint 0-point system and MakroGrip vices.

 

They told me that they spend around 20-25K on spindle- and table-tooling. Their machine has a 40ATC so they ended up purchasing around 50 holders.

 

In general I don't recommend shrinkfit tooling. It's very expensive getting started and the holders are not rigid enough for roughing. And overhang adjustment can burn your fingers. I would go for a good colletchuck system like Fahrion or Regofix's Powergrip.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

Ok Shawn, How many hours did you spend designing your stuff? How much did that anno cost? How long in assembly. How long to machine them?

 

Yeah I know, once the R&D is dine, it's done, but I'd bet that you didn't actually save anything by making them yourself. Sure they are cool looking but unless you are going to start marketing them (which you cannot due to patent infringement on Technigrip), you're upside dow.

 

I'm not sayin' I'm just sayin.

 

quote:

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In general I don't recommend shrinkfit tooling. It's very expensive getting started and the holders are not rigid enough for roughing.

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Gonna have to wave the flag on this one. Shrinkfit holders are THE most rigid of all the holders. They are even more rigid than sidelock holders. WAY more rigid than ANY collet or Hydraulic system. I've done testing that bears this out. The key is to buy quality solid carbide cutting tools. If someone buys crap tools, the result will be crap.

 

JM2C

[Joe788]

quote:

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Ok Shawn, How many hours did you spend designing your stuff? How much did that anno cost? How long in assembly. How long to machine them?

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You gotta remember, he's got 12 pallets. 12 x $600 = $7200. Depending on how busy they were, and the shop rate (remember, this was an all Haas shop before the Makino, and they didn't have the Makino running yet), he probably came out way ahead making them himself. Wasn't the cost of 32 Technigrips sort of the reason why the Raptor was invented in the first place?

 

For somebody with two pallets, like me, it's WAY cheaper to just buy a Raptor. Having just started using the Raptor last week, I can attest to it's outstanding quality of manufacture. It was worth every penny.

[Mic]

quote:

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Gonna have to wave the flag on this one. Shrinkfit holders are THE most rigid of all the holders. They are even more rigid than sidelock holders. WAY more rigid than ANY collet or Hydraulic system. I've done testing that bears this out. The key is to buy quality solid carbide cutting tools. If someone buys crap tools, the result will be crap.

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Shrinkfit holder might be rigid but not as rigid as really good collect chucks. And because it's a monoblock holder there is no vibration damping compared to a collect chuck. I've seen high quality endmills being pulled out of a shrinkfit holder during heavy sidemilling.

 

Many highend collect chucks also has higher gripping torque than shrinkfit.

 

Here Regofix powergrip

http://counterwelt.com/cwlinker.php?1200304017.97

See page 4 for gripping torque

 

[ 04-09-2010, 01:13 PM: Message edited by: Mic ]

[SydwazShawn]

quote:

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Ok Shawn, How many hours did you spend designing your stuff? How much did that anno cost? How long in assembly. How long to machine them?

 

Yeah I know, once the R&D is dine, it's done, but I'd bet that you didn't actually save anything by making them yourself. Sure they are cool looking but unless you are going to start marketing them (which you cannot due to patent infringement on Technigrip), you're upside dow.

 

I'm not sayin' I'm just sayin.

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Well I hear ya! I had about 2,400 into machining and material (7075). Like you said it was the design time that took a while. Probably 15-20 hours of screwing around.

This biggest benefit for me was them to be modular! This is where I consider myself way ahead. I can place them any where I want and they all can stack up together if I want. I, at some point may need 3 of the main blocks per pallet, and can make them in a snap now. That’s 3*600*12=21,600 bucks+custom to my spec= way ahead!

 

Just sayin!!

 

Just wanted to say that Raptor is a great product and I have them as well as TechniGrip. If I didn’t have so many pallets now I would definitely be buying more Raptors for sure as what Joe788 stated!! Of course mine definitely have their differences from the Raptors, I still would not attempt to market and dip into their Kool aid! They are for me and me only. “I don’t run that kind of operation”(Jerky Boys)! lol

 

Shawn..