Need advice on a horizontal mill

[Bob W.]

I currently have two Haas VMCs (VF2 and VM3) and I am beginning to feel pretty limited by these. I have the opportunity to take on some short run production to supplement the prototyping and mold work I do along with other work that requires tolerances the Haas machines can't provide. I am taking a long hard look at getting rid of both machines and purchasing a new or used horizontal mill. The machine I have in mind is either a Mori Seiki NH5000 or a Mori NHX5000. The NHX is considerable less expensive and I am curious to find out if there is a big difference in quality. I would also consider an Okuma, Makino, or Matsuura but I like the direct drive 4th axis of the Mori and I believe the Matsuura and Makino would be out of my price range. If I do go with a horizontal I would also be adding a DDRT as a 5th axis on a dedicated pallet.

 

Reasons I am attracted to a horizontal over my current machines are quicker changeovers for new setups, improved accuracy, improved rigidity, better performance on production runs.

 

I would love to hear and opinions regarding machine choice, new vs used, horizontals set up with rotary tables for 5-axis machining, etc... My timeline to make this transition is sometime in the next 12-18 months and I have just begun to start doing my homework.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

SInce price is somewhat of a consideration, I would consider a Kiwa. They spec well. Performance is comparable to a high end machine, but the price tg is a bit more friendly to the wallet. Some limitations of the Kiwa... IIRC, you're limited to 220 tools max. That may or may not be a problem. I've seen the 40 and 60 tool models in a few shops and the owners are very pleased with the performance and value.

 

JM2C

 

 

[Bob W.]

The tools is a major consideration as well and I would really like to go 120 tools min. More would be better and I wish more tools could be added once in the field. My ultimate goal would be to expand into a pallet pool if things went well.

 

I went cheap once (with the Haas) and it was the right decision at the time. I want to do this right and whatever I do end up with will be the cornerstone of the shop for the next 15 years. Price is a consideration but I would rather pay more for the quality than go cheap and regret it later.

[Greg Williams]

If you want to add a 5th axis later you will need to upgrade the control software as it will require the interface to be added. Buying this from the factory is a far cheaper solution. I would go with the brand that is well supported in your area.

[Mr. Wizzard]

I can't give any advice on particular machines for what you're doing, but have a suggestion. Model up a part that represents what you would typically be machining and have a few suppliers machine the same exact part. You can check surface finish, cycle time, and toolpaths. Just keep in mind what and how you program (mcam, stepovers, etc...) and how they program. They may use different software, strategies, etc....

 

i went this route when we were looking. The Makino had the best surface finish and quickest cycle time, by far. We (they) never ended up buying anything, but it was a valuable learning experience, indeed.

[Nathan G. Baldwin]

We have 3 okuma horizontals that we beat to death and they've proven to be good workhorses. I can only imagine what a new one would cost, but even 10 years old and in production 24/7 these are pretty reliable machines. HTH

[Newbeeee™]

Bob,

Obvious downside is only the 1x spindle. You can't be running 2x jobs at a time on the 1x hori, and if you get down time, hori's are usually more expensive to fix but more importantly with only the 1x machine down, nothing is running. That said, I can see why you want to do it. Keep tools set, load a pallet and away to the races.

If you're going for a used hori, be carefull it hasn't been bumped and the table is off centre. Bad enough for 4x axis but if you're adding a 5th and the tables off

But I would always keep a vertical for tooling and backup.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

If you want more tools... Matsuura will go up to 520 Tools. They are not cheap, but quality never is. Toyoda 490-something. A very strong machine. Both machines have the ability to have more tools added in the field for example;

Matsuura - 90 / 120 / 150 / 180 / 210 / 240 (One possibility), 120 / 160 / 200 / 240 / 280 / 320 (Another possibility), 360 / 400 / 440 / 480 / 520 (final possibility)

Toyoda is not such a wide range. I think it goes 40 / 60 / 90 / 120 / 240 or 320 (IIRC) and the 490-something option.

 

HTH

[mr801]

I have worked for a job shop for the last 14 years. I started out running a engine lathe and a Bridgeport. We ended up getting a knee mill with 2 axis programmable. Then a knee mill with 3 axis programmable. I have used Mastercam since version 7. Then we got a Mori VMC that was used and then another VMC. We thought we were in buisness. Then we couldn't keep up with the work. I was scared to death of a 4 axis horizontal to think about programming it and making it run lights out. We purchased a Mori NH4000dcg standalone with 120 tools. I got the hang of it. It made money. 120 tools wasn't quite enough. So the next machine we bought was a NH4000dcg with 180 tools and six pallet system. We then bought a Mori Seiki Nh5000 DCG with 180 tools and six pallet system just to keep up. Then we bought another NH5000DCG with 240 tools and a six pallet system. To me, It seems like 240 is a good number for tools for what we do. A pallet system is a must have. I work on average of 50 to 55 hours a week, but the machine is running an average of 18-24 hours a day. Since, the first of Feb until now it has ran 2630 hours. That might not seem like much to a full 24/7 shop but for a job shop, I think it's great. We bought one Mori and stuck with buying Mori's. Our service is second to none. If you buy any machine, plan on buying another one. For ease of use it's nice to have the same brand. I can run any of the programs that I run on one machine on another. All the tool librarys are the same. I really like the Mori Horizontals, Real workhorses. I spent a week at Mori/DMG in Chicago a month ago. I didn't really like the NHX4000, not enough tools for what I do. Having all the tools you can, makes the biggest difference in the world. I would like 520 tools. Even the Matsurras seem to be a great machine. Just make sure you have support and you will be ok no matter what machine you buy.

[Joe788]

I've got a handful of buddies that have purchased new 400 and 500mm machines over the last 2-3 years (including me). The dynamics of pricing between different MTBs/dealers in different regions are always amusing. Where I am, Mori, Makino, and Matsuura are all right in the same ballpark price wise, depending on a number of factors - like what time of day it is, whether or not the sun is shining, how many other machines they've sold that month, etc, etc . Mazak is direct here, so the machine and option pricing is far better. I have friends that have bought Mazak, Mori, Makino, and Matsuura HMCs all in the last few years, and all of them are thrilled with the equipment. Only difference is how many people stuck their hand in the cookie jar between Japan and the shop floor.

 

As far as Kiwa goes, should be a pretty bitchin' machine as long as Methods sticks with them. I know people with KNH426X machines who will read you the xxxxin' riot act for 15 minutes at the mere mention of Kiwa, due to the downtime caused by the importer switch.

 

If I were you, I'd keep the Haas machines (or at least ONE) for your prototypes, and wait for a smokin' deal on a slightly used Japanese horizontal or multi pallet 5 axis VMC. You will get tired of running one-off stuff on a modern HMC. A Haas that you know inside and out will always be a good addition to your arsenal.

 

I am a machine junky, so I always keep up on all of the newest HMC and 5 axis stuff, as well as any late model used stuff that pops up (sometimes I feel like I work just so I can feed my habit of machine shopping/buying ) I comb all of the spam from all of the used dealers on a daily basis. If you can hold off and wait for the perfect deal, it WILL present itself, and you WILL easily save well over $100K.

[Bob W.]

If you can hold off and wait for the perfect deal, it WILL present itself, and you WILL easily save well over $100K.

 

My timeline is 12-18 months so I am not in a hurry and I do plan to keep a look out for a good deal that meets my needs.

[crazy^millman]

Well I will share my thoughts and with them you can do what you need. I have worked in big places and smaller places where decisions where made to do things I did not agree with. In one place I worked at we had $1.2 million in overtime and $1 million in maintenance yearly. I looked at putting in a $2.2 million FMS system in that place. It was shot down and I was told if I brought it up again I would need to find myself another job. So that went no where. In 12 months that system would have paid for itself without any added benefits of reduced set-up times, higher spindle speeds, heavier duty, and lights our capabilities not be utilized with the older equipment it would have replaced. So money was not spent to purchase the system, but in 5 years that was $11 million in thrown away money. I figured that one system could have made $20 million over 5 years. So it could have been $18 million in profit yes it was an $11 million opportunity.

 

Different company some time later. Purchased an old piece of equipment that ended up sitting for 8 months after being put on the floor. In down time for the other problems for the first 18 months the machine sat idle for 12 months of that. It really only ran for 8 hours for that time a day. In that 18 months using a standard shop rate of $100/hr that company ended losing $832k in production for just the 12 months. So by not spending the money on a new piece of equipment which would have been $250k to $350K depending on options that company lost a huge amount of money. Spend it or not that is your choice, however I will tell you this the companies that have invested in new equipment are busy. The 3rd and 4th quarter are looking to be huge. Where do you want to be hoping the dice you rolled on used equipment works, or know you have the equipment that leverages you to be in a place where you can look at stacking work, going after work and doing work like you want or having to take work because you have no other choice? If you got the work then where do you want obe in 12, 24 or 36 months from know? Adding to that cell with newer equipment or hoping you can find another used one like they one you just got?

[Bob W.]

My thinking on a used machine was something around 2007-2008 or so. It appears that I can get something in this range used with a pallet pool for the same price as the new machine without the pool. I am a small shop so I really do need to stick with a budget. I am sticking my neck out a little even taking this approach but I think it is the right direction and worth the risk. If I won the lottery I'd run out and buy a 5-axis with a pallet pool and be done with it but in the mean time I'd like to stay in business if there is a hiccup in the work flow.

[SKIR68]

We have a Mori Seiki MH-1000 Horizontal. Use it for gundrilling mold base plates and all kids of angel work on cores. We LOVE it! The only thing we believe is not up to Mori Seiki quality are the way covers. They are expensive and of poor design.

Other than that, its 120 capacity and rigid as he!!

 

 

[G10X0Y0Z0]

Makino all the way. may be pricey but you get what you pay for. Why not consider a 5 axis machine instead of a horiz. The mikrons from Agie are a good buy. You can always program 3+2 on those and still have full 5 axis capability when you need it.

[mkd]

the way covers have problems on the nh4000dcg. the one under the spindle has the sections staggered facing UP! works great for catching chips and getting them jammed.

 

the retard who designed that needs to be fired.

 

oh did i mention that Mori sent the wrong part...wait for it......three times!!!

ya a 3 month fix, waiting for a boat from japan.

 

door windows are poorly designed/ fragile.

other than the above and radioactivity, they are awesome.

[Bob W.]

Makino all the way. may be pricey but you get what you pay for. Why not consider a 5 axis machine instead of a horiz. The mikrons from Agie are a good buy. You can always program 3+2 on those and still have full 5 axis capability when you need it.

 

A major attraction to the horizontal is the pallet changer. Much of the work I have down the line is short run production of families of parts in quantities of 50-100. I also do rather large molds and prototyping. Getting into a pallet pool with set fixtures is part of the long term plan.

[Chris Rizzo]

Slight hi-jack: Bob if you can get over to Mcam tomorrow and see Ron's demo it's very cool. Plus you get to shoot the breeze with him. Don't think I can make it.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

If you were to consider going with a 5-Axis Trunion style machine, you can put tombstones on them AND get 5-Axis. Yeah, you're getting up there in price whenyou do that but, the flexibility really explodes.

[Bob W.]

If you were to consider going with a 5-Axis Trunion style machine, you can put tombstones on them AND get 5-Axis. Yeah, you're getting up there in price whenyou do that but, the flexibility really explodes.

 

With a horizontal and a rotary table on one of the pallets am I really losing much though? I really don't do very much true 5-axis work though I see the value in it. Most of my multiaxis work can be done with a true 4th axis or 3+2 positioning. How much slower would a horizontal with a rotary table 5th axis be vs a true 5-axis machine?

 

Another reason is the travels. Many of the molds I do require the 28" travels that the NH5000 provides. Do the 5-axis pallet changing machines have those kinds of travels? I do enough of this mold work that I can't afford to ignore it or let it go.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

With a horizontal and a rotary table on one of the pallets am I really losing much though? I really don't do very much true 5-axis work though I see the value in it. Most of my multiaxis work can be done with a true 4th axis or 3+2 positioning. How much slower would a horizontal with a rotary table 5th axis be vs a true 5-axis machine?

 

Another reason is the travels. Many of the molds I do require the 28" travels that the NH5000 provides. Do the 5-axis pallet changing machines have those kinds of travels? I do enough of this mold work that I can't afford to ignore it or let it go.

 

I know a lot of people that are sold on and sccessfully use that configuration. Myself, I just don't like it. I've had issues doing simultaneous work with hat congifuration, and ror not much more in some cases, I can get a REAL 5-Axis, one that is configured and designed to run in that manner. Is 29.9 x 33.2 x 24 acceptable travels?

[Bob W.]

Is 29.9 x 33.2 x 24 acceptable travels?

 

Yep, If I could get a pallet changing 5-axis for not much more and it had those travels I would seriously consider it. What machine did you have in mind?

[robk]

Here is a nice 5 axis Mazak with a pallet changer My link

[taperlength]

Mazak Variaxis 630 has travels of 27 x 28 x 20. It's a 5axis vertical with pallet changer.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

Yep, If I could get a pallet changing 5-axis for not much more and it had those travels I would seriously consider it. What machine did you have in mind?

 

 

Matsuura MAM72-63V