Haas vs Makino

[Bob W.]

I was running my new Makino PS95 today taking some heavy cuts and it got me to thinking... How would my Haas perform with these same cuts? I was not surprised by the results and I decided to make a short video. I will be making several more of these direct comparison videos over the next several weeks testing aspects of accuracy, cycle times, thermal stability, etc... I figured it would be interesting to see just how much of a difference there is with some concrete results. I am not an employee of Makino and they had nothing to do with me making this video. It is purely informational and objective. Enjoy.

 

BTW, I set the spindle load limit to 150% for the Haas. I recently replaced a spindle motor AND vector drive and I didn't want to add a new spindle to that list. This test did make me nervous (on the Haas) because I didn't want to damage the machine in the process.

 

[Joe788]

Cool video Bob. If you still have that set up, what happens if you cut the DOC in half, but double the feed? Does the Haas get any further into the part?

[Mr. M]

I always love it when someone says "Yeah, well my Haas has just as much speed and power as :inserthighendbuilderhere:, and is only $73k.

Yeah, lets see that cut

Thanks for the test and video!

[Bob W.]

Cool video Bob. If you still have that set up, what happens if you cut the DOC in half, but double the feed? Does the Haas get any further into the part?

 

I didn't have the balls to run this in the Haas without working up to it. At a .25" depth cut with the same speeds and feeds the spindle load was 90%... Their 30 hp claim is pure BS. 30 hp before the machine has a major catastrophic failure maybe...

 

Also, the chip load the cutter can take is pretty much maxed out at the current parameters so I couldn't push it any faster without increasing the spindle rpms.

[Bob W.]

I always love it when someone says "Yeah, well my Haas has just as much speed and power as :inserthighendbuilderhere:, and is only $73k.

Yeah, lets see that cut

Thanks for the test and video!

 

You are welcome, and there are more to come :-)

[heavychevy2155]

Wow that makes the Haas look like a dog! I know they have their place but the VM is one of their top models, and it looked like a toy next to the Makino. When productivity is the bottom line, price is secondary compaired to the overall process of getting the parts out the door and on time. If you don't mind what was the price difference of the two machines? If you can do a few more compairing the machines and give good and bad points about them I would love to see and hear what you come up with. Thank you for the video and anymore you may be doing!!

[Bob W.]

Wow that makes the Haas look like a dog! I know they have their place but the VM is one of their top models, and it looked like a toy next to the Makino. When productivity is the bottom line, price is secondary compaired to the overall process of getting the parts out the door and on time. If you don't mind what was the price difference of the two machines? If you can do a few more compairing the machines and give good and bad points about them I would love to see and hear what you come up with. Thank you for the video and anymore you may be doing!!

 

We'll see how long this stays up, they are pretty funny about posting $$$ here. The Makino cost me $45k more than the Haas. The Makino is also pretty loaded with options, including:

 

400 psi through spindle coolant

Core cooled ball screws

Spindle chiller

scraper drum chip conveyor

tool setter and spindle probe

Air dryer for compressed air input.

expanded memory

macro variables

multiple block skip

dual chip augers

rigid tapping

etc...

 

Haas has pretty much all of the options including 4th and 5th axis wiring, but no TSC.

[Bob W.]

Also, when watching take a good hard look at the spindles of both machines. I was told that the PS95 has the same spindle as my Makino A51nx horizontal mill. 14k rpm, 30 hp.

[heavychevy2155]

Thanks Bob, the Makino is definitely more but the gain's look worth every penny if you have the work for it.

[mkd]

great unique oportunity to test!!!! you da man!!!

 

so you had the haas setup to ALARM on that tool at 150% load? maybe turn that setting off and re-test.

 

i have some experience with this Haas model. direct drive spindle is obviously lacking torque at 3000rpm.

who the heck runs aluminum at 3000rpm??????????????

does the makino have a gearbox?

[mkd]

retest at 8000 rpm

you will get different results.

[Bob W.]

great unique oportunity to test!!!! you da man!!!

 

so you had the haas setup to ALARM on that tool at 150% load? maybe turn that setting off and re-test.

 

i have some experience with this Haas model. direct drive spindle is obviously lacking torque at 3000rpm.

who the heck runs aluminum at 3000rpm??????????????

does the makino have a gearbox?

 

1. Makino is a direct drive spindle too...

2. I am not willing to turn off the spindle load limit. It is there for a reason and that is to protect the spindle and I do not want to scrap my spindle running these tests. Also, I would assume anything over 100% is not ideal, otherwise Haas would have the 100% set at much higher power levels.

3. At 3000 rpm the Makino is running at 75% of full power. The Makino's power curve peaks between 5000 and 9000 rpm and in that range the power available is a full 30 hp. At 3000 rpm only 22 hp is available.

 

This was a quick test and pretty much spur of the moment. Not too much thought went into it.

[Bob W.]

retest at 8000 rpm

you will get different results.

 

Do you really think it will change the outcome? How about if I test both machines at 8000 rpm. I will test the Makino at a spindle load of 100%. Do you think the Haas will be able to make that cut? Are you willing to wager?

[GnoGueyJose]

Every machine has it's performance sweet spot. That Makino is going to do well using old school bury the f*** out of the cutter whereas the Haas... not so much. Anybody that expected the Haas to perform well in this experiment I just have to laugh. Ther's a reason that Makino costs more and it's not just because it's Japanese. I used to have a debate with some of the old guys around here, they wanted their old school slow high horsepower box way machines and I wanted to utilize newer linear guide technology when we were making the transition to new equipment. Well, at the end of the horse race, HST removed more cubes than Old School bury the cutter did. Not only was HST literally faster, tool life shot way up after the transition.

 

Now, before you jump my s***, I'm not trying to make the argument that the Haas is as good as the Makino. I'm just saying each machine has it's own performance characteristics and you have to treat each machine different to get the most out of each one.

[Bob W.]

Now, before you jump my s***, I'm not trying to make the argument that the Haas is as good as the Makino. I'm just saying each machine has it's own performance characteristics and you have to treat each machine different to get the most out of each one.

 

I would agree with that assessment. I didn't expect the Haas to do well but I wasn't sure how much of a difference there would be. The debate goes on but it will be nice to have some concrete comparisons to go off and not just opinions. To really run the gammit on this would take more time than I am willing to give, after all I do need to get parts out the door.

 

I guess part of the root of this is that it is a real pet peeve of mine when manufacturers publish ratings of their equipment that are unrealistic or overly optimistic. I would be interested to hear exactly how long the Haas could pump out 30 hp before an alarm, or failure, or if it would even do it at all. I guess this brings to lite that Haas does just that, which isn't much of a surprise. This is also a "mold machine" so it will be fun to test some of the characteristics that would qualify it as such.

[Mic]

Not to defend the Haas but from this it looks like the Makino has more power than you think.

 

http://www.makino.com/vertical-machining-centers/ps-series-vmc/ps-brochure-(electronic).pdf

 

Between 5000 and 9000 rpm it's not 30hp but 30kW (40hp) you can use for a short time like in your cut.

 

@3000rpm it's 22kW (29.5hp) for short time.

[rgollar]

Thanks alot for your time and this video. I look forward to seeing more. That video is quite an eye opener. I own my own buisness and have been buying haas machines. But I got to say seeing stuff like that really changes how I will purchase next time.

[Rotary Ninja]

Every machine has it's performance sweet spot. That Makino is going to do well using old school bury the f*** out of the cutter whereas the Haas... not so much. Anybody that expected the Haas to perform well in this experiment I just have to laugh. Ther's a reason that Makino costs more and it's not just because it's Japanese. I used to have a debate with some of the old guys around here, they wanted their old school slow high horsepower box way machines and I wanted to utilize newer linear guide technology when we were making the transition to new equipment. Well, at the end of the horse race, HST removed more cubes than Old School bury the cutter did. Not only was HST literally faster, tool life shot way up after the transition.

 

Now, before you jump my s***, I'm not trying to make the argument that the Haas is as good as the Makino. I'm just saying each machine has it's own performance characteristics and you have to treat each machine different to get the most out of each one.

 

I agree with this, for the most part. Cutting a part fast isn't just how deep of a cut you can take. A shallower cut with higher feedrates and RPM can be just as fast and be easier on the equipment. Let the tool and spindle's inertia do the work!

 

But this would be a very good comparison Bob. It just needs a few more variables I think. It would be great to see varying depth of cut and higher RPM tests. I think you should get different results if you hit the optimal cutting parameters on the Haas AND the Makino. Every machine has its "sweet spot". I really don't think 3000 RPM and that depth of cut and feedrate with that tool is it for either machine (especially the Haas LOL). Didn't you just buy that tool? I remember you made a post about buying a facemill awhile back. I am not disagreeing with you in any way Bob. I just think you need to figure out first what that tool will do in each machine. Then compare.

 

Example... I use an Ingersol 2" face mill with square inserts for facing and contouring. I run this tool at 7500 RPM. When facing I can take .200" depth of cut at half the cutter width at 150 IPM on a Haas VF2 with a 20 HP spindle with no problems. When contouring I crank the feed to 300 IPM. With more HP I would run it even faster on both RPM and feed. I hit 100% spindle load all the time, and in small areas that exceed half the cutter width, like internal corners, I may even hit 150% and up for short instances. I have ran this machine like this for almost 6 years. The chips hitting the inside of the machine sound like 1/8" ball bearings being fired by a machine gun. I can fill up a chip barrel faster than I care to dump them. It took me months of using this tool to figure out these optimal settings, and there are times when I still find myself tweaking.

 

Anyway, I look forward to more results Bob. The Makino is one machine I have never had experience with. It will be interesting to see more of it. Thanks for taking the time to do this!

[JAMMAN]

Keep it coming, one of those and an equivalent lathe I could fold production by 4 or 5 times here, and we have the money just not the upper management mentality yet.

[heavychevy2155]

Just look at the tool in the spindle, the housing on the Makino is huge compaired to the Haas. The Haas cannot make up for the mass and how stable the tool will be in the Makino while taking heavy cuts. I feel the Haas is so out gunned in this it isn't even fair, but I can't wait to see some more. There really is a reason why the Highend machines cost so much, because they are worth it.

[Robert Ouellette]

i have a vm-6 at my shop and i have the same kennametal face mill and i run that cutter at 7500rpm and 380ipm at .100" deep 60-75% radial cut all day long. like it has been said by others every machine has a sweet spot and you just have to find it and use it there. im not knocking makino, i would love to have one and find out just where the sweet spot is on that machine, but Haas has a spot in the market and they fill it nicely. makino has a very nice spot in the market also and they are a very nice machine. but for small shops that dont have the capital to buy something that is $45k more the haas gets the job done. just have to do it differently than on a bigger stronger machine. just my 2 cents

[Bob W.]

More test results:

 

I have a part I have been running on the Haas with a cycle time of 2:27:04. This is a small aluminum part using three tools with the largest at 3/32". It involves rest roughing with a 3/32" end mill, rest roughing again with a 1/16" end mill, then finishing with a 1/16" ball mill The spindle is pegged at 12k for the entire program and the max feed rate in this program is 40 ipm. I copied the program from the Haas, ran it through Vericut with the Makino control to check for issues, then after a few minor syntax edits I ran it on the Makino 10" above the table, just cutting air. The cycle time on the Makino was 2:19:04. This is pretty much what I expected. With small tools and slow feed rates there really shouldn't be that big of a difference, and there wasn't. 8 minutes isn't anything to write home about.

 

The Makino was running at 12k rpm and it has 14k available. If I were to increase the speeds and feeds by 16% to utilize the machine's capabilities we are looking at a time savings of up to 30 minutes, or 20%, which is starting to become significant. This would in fact allow me to run one more of these parts per shift, at a value of $200 per part.

 

Edit: I actually ran this test with a finished cycle time of 1:57:55, beating the Haas by 29 minutes.

[Newbeeee™]

Bob - I'm asuming the Makino has G05 of some description. If it has, you'll probably reduce the like for like by another 10% at least by running it with this activated.

[Redfire427]

I run both of these machines every day. There is no comparison, at any level, between the two machines. The Makino is an absolute workhorse and tens times ( exaggeration ) more accurate than the HAAS. The extra money spent on the Makino is worth every penny. Keep in mind, that you would also have a higher resale value on the Makino. Ever looked at the price of a used HAAS?

 

If you make aluminum or plastic parts that require no precision, then HAAS is the answer. For everything else, the Makino reigns supreme.

 

Bob, you may be able to decrease the cycle time on the PS95 by changing the tolerance mode. M251 is the high performance mode that should decrease cycle time depending on the g-code point output and complexity of the movements.

 

Carmen

[heavychevy2155]

Not just resell value, also look at the parts coming off the machines in 10 years. I'm sure the Makino will still be churning out great parts with hardly any down time.