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Haas vs Makino part 2


Bob W.
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Here is another video showing the Haas and Makino during the 2D HST toolpaths (2D core roughing and peel mill). Same part in both machines and same program, for the most part. Haas will not feed any faster than 500 ipm so I had to drop the cutting and return feed rates accordingly. I also ran into some pretty good chatter in the Haas and had to slow things down further. Ultimately things quieted down around 250 ipm but I didn't get any footage of the machine actually cutting chips at that rate. Any faster and I was running into chatter.

 

The cutter was an MA Ford 134 series end mill @1/2" diameter. This is a roughing specific cutter and it does a great job of getting the material off quickly. The 1/4" end mill was an MA Ford 138 series finisher and I really like those as well. So take it for what it is. I'm sure some will love it, some will find it very interesting, and some will think it is unfair and that I am an @ss. I will not be posting any more videos for a while because I don't want to clog up the forum with this and I don't want to beat a dead horse.

 

Lastly, the Makino rang in at 10:57, the Haas rang in at 16:37 running 10" above the part cutting air at 500 ipm, and the Haas rang in at ~18:00 with the core roughing turned down to 250 ipm. Again, the radial step over was 25% with a 5/8 depth cut for the 1/2" tool and .59" depth cut for the 1/4" tool.

 

I would also like to add that both machines were in standard mode, meaning that the Makino was running in M250 and the Haas was running in G187 P2. The Hass will run faster in G187 P1 but it gives up the farm in accuracy. In a core roughing application I would need to leave at least .020" to avoid clipping corners on the finished part and since I am typically finishing with small tools (1/16 ball mill, etc...) I prefer to rough in standard mode and leave .005" for finishing. The Makino could have been run in M251 (performance mode) but with removal rates that fast I am fine with roughing in M250. I can leave .005", do a quick rest rough, and be ready to finish. This is a pretty utilitarian part so it really wouldn't have mattered but I wanted to keep it representative of how I like to program.

 

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Wow. Very impressed with the Makino there. That 1/2" was getting after it! Is the MA Ford your endmill of choice in this application? They look like they do a pretty good job. We use Data Flute here but may have to try some of the MA Ford offerings to compare.

 

I have seen the same thing with the high speed toolpaths on the Haas. The programmed feedrate isn't processed well by the Haas and it doesn't run anywhere near where it should. Especially the older machines.

 

Very good video! More more more!

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These videos are stupid! Your comparing a Ferrari to a Honda. The reason the Haas is $45,000 cheaper is cause they save a lot of money by making the machine cheaper, lighter and not as strong as the japanese machines. A lot of folks would not have gone into buisness if it wasn't for Haas. Haas will never compare to a high end machine and we all know this.

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These videos are stupid! Your comparing a Ferrari to a Honda. The reason the Haas is $45,000 cheaper is cause they save a lot of money by making the machine cheaper, lighter and not as strong as the japanese machines. A lot of folks would not have gone into buisness if it wasn't for Haas. Haas will never compare to a high end machine and we all know this.

 

So take it for what it is
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Great video..

 

I freely admit im no Haas fan, but so far as I am concerned these videos are a direct rebuttal to all the Haas fanboys who continually try and make it out like Haas actually makes a machine worth buying.. we bought 4 brand new and shipped them back when they couldnt match the accuracy of our ten year old mazaks as proven by the CMM ..

 

As has been said over and over again on here.. Haas simply are not cheaper in the long run.. thinking they are will just end up costing you lost productivity, and inability to match the accuracy and quality of competing shops that have purchased equipment with a slightly higher up front cost but with a substantially better return on investment ..

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Is the MA Ford your end mill of choice in this application

I've used their end mills a few times and they've worked well, but I love their drills

I'm currently running a big alloy steel cylinder with .800" thick walls and a Ø.157 hole pattern

7200 holes total.

I'm running an MA Ford 5D thru coolant drill at 4850 RPM and 9 ipm.

G81 right through, no spot drill and 9 seconds a hole. We're getting about 4000 holes per drill.

I wouldn't beleive it if I didn't see it with my own eyes.

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Great video..

 

I freely admit im no Haas fan, but so far as I am concerned these videos are a direct rebuttal to all the Haas fanboys who continually try and make it out like Haas actually makes a machine worth buying.. we bought 4 brand new and shipped them back when they couldnt match the accuracy of our ten year old mazaks as proven by the CMM ..

 

As has been said over and over again on here.. Haas simply are not cheaper in the long run.. thinking they are will just end up costing you lost productivity, and inability to match the accuracy and quality of competing shops that have purchased equipment with a slightly higher up front cost but with a substantially better return on investment ..

 

 

Thats an outright lie buddy. My friends shop that I worked for for 6 years has 10 haas machines that are about 15 years old and will hold +-.0005 all day long. Its all in how they are taken care of. I've also seen alot of haas machines that where beat to sh@# and werent worth a darn.

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Another fine video clearly stating the case. anyone that thinks your an a$$ for this is an a$$, you have taken the time to share. I could see this as great material for someone in the position to influence machine acquisition as it may apply to there type of work. I own a Haas but it is what it is and was what I could afford. If I could have afforded a better machine maybe I would still be in business or maybe deeper in debt who knows but for those with the resources your information would be most helpfull.

 

thanks

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I've used their end mills a few times and they've worked well, but I love their drills

I'm currently running a big alloy steel cylinder with .800" thick walls and a Ø.157 hole pattern

7200 holes total.

I'm running an MA Ford 5D thru coolant drill at 4850 RPM and 9 ipm.

G81 right through, no spot drill and 9 seconds a hole. We're getting about 4000 holes per drill.

I wouldn't beleive it if I didn't see it with my own eyes.

 

Wow. That is awesome. I've used their drills. We have some tough drilling jobs we do with them. But nothing with that number of holes. Good god!

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Its not a lie, and if if +/- .0005 is good enough for you then fine.. were consistently holding .001 true position so .0005 isnt near good enough .. and they were brand new machines ..

 

I guess it all depends the type of work your doing, but for us accuracy is very important to us tenths matter..

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Thats an outright lie buddy. My friends shop that I worked for for 6 years has 10 haas machines that are about 15 years old and will hold +-.0005 all day long. Its all in how they are taken care of. I've also seen alot of haas machines that where beat to sh@# and werent worth a darn.

 

A Haas will NOT hold .0005" all day long, no way, no how. Get a probe on that sucker and run some tests. My VM3 (purchased new) had spindle growth of ~.0015" after running at speed for a few hours during mold finishing and the X, Y, and Z axis will drift due to thermal growth over the course of a few hours. I know this as FACT and have reams of data to back it up. This is after spending as few weeks tweaking and testing the thermal growth parameters. Haas flew service techs up here to correct these issues AND THEY COULDN'T. Their solution was to add scales. Their thermal comp is open loop meaning the control is just guessing at how much heat is being generated and correcting accordingly. Sorry to burst your bubble, but a Haas will not hold better than .0015" all day long unless you are running the exact same part and the entire process has been built around dealing with the thermal growth of the spindle and ball screws. Having a probe on my VM3 was a real eye opener to say the least.

 

The Makino has cooled ball screws and the spindle has a chiller so there is a very good heat management system in place to keep things stable. This is a huge reason I bought this machine over others because I know this will hold .0002" all day long...

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These videos are stupid! Your comparing a Ferrari to a Honda.

 

I didn't know Ferrari made a car that only cost 20% more than a Honda. :turned:

 

He's comparing Makino's "budget" machine, to Haas' top of the line. If he were comparing a $200K+ Makino F5 with a $50,000 Plain Jane VF-3 with a carousel and 7500rpm spindle, the Ferrari/Honda analogy might be more accurate.

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Its not a lie, and if if +/- .0005 is good enough for you then fine.. were consistently holding .001 true position so .0005 isnt near good enough .. and they were brand new machines ..

 

I guess it all depends the type of work your doing, but for us accuracy is very important to us tenths matter..

 

Well if you bought a Haas thinking it would hold .001 tru position all day then you bought the wrong machine. Everyone knows they aint that accurate. Thats your mistake buddy. If

I was trying to hold .001 tru position on a Haas I know that I would have to cut the feature smaller and check it. There are many ways to overcome machine inacuracies. Maybe you need better employees and not blame your equipment.

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great video. thank you. objective head to head comparo.

 

"Haas is programmed at 150", no way it's actually feeding that fast; it's going pretty slow"

 

hit the nail on the head with that! this is one of my main criticisms of the Haas designs; tiny servo motors.

 

fyi: you can get the haas control to display over 800ipm by overriding....whether ist going that fast is another story.

 

 

A Haas will NOT hold .0005" all day long, no way, no how.

yep.

rock solid @.002"

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Maybe you need better employees and not blame your equipment.

 

The difference in machine cost is $30,000. If the machine that costs $30,000 can hold .001TP all day without a babysitter, the difference in labor on that alone will pay for itself in the first year.

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There are many ways to overcome machine inacuracies. Maybe you need better employees and not blame your equipment.

 

Exactly! MOST inaccuracies can be overcome, but at the cost of TIME. I don't want to spend all day dicking around trying to make accurate parts on the Haas when I can simply throw the part on a higher end machine and get it out the door, right the first time, in a hour... It is much more cost effective in the long run and how shops stay profitable, which for me is what its all about.

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fyi: you can get the haas control to display over 800ipm by overriding....whether ist going that fast is another story.

 

I looked around to see if the Haas shows the actual feed during machining but I couldn't find it anywhere. The Makino was a rock solid 800 on the straights and about 250 around the ends of the part. I didn't think to look at what it was running the 1/4" tool at but it was probably 2X that of the Haas.

 

Glad you enjoyed the video.

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^^^current commands page

where nc prog is on left and all your modal command, spindle speeds and feed is show in big font on the right.

i have the older crt screen and control, not a new one like you, so they changed a bit...

my bad^

anyways it's still a display of programmed feed times override. not actual on Haas

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Thank you Bob, This really helps us all, Haas guys and the non-Haas guys. Keep it up. I am a Haas guy and I do not think you are being unfair at all..... This is an eye opener for sure. Don't let us Haastatutes get to you you are doing the lord's work.

Thanks again.

Maybe a good comparision would be, Pick-ups

VF-3 = Ranger, Colorado, Tacoma,etc...

VM-3 = F150, 1500 Silverado with standard V-8

 

Makino, Mori, etc.... but $30-50K more = F350, Silverado HD, with larger motor

 

They all haul stuff..... But they don't all haul the same??? Maybe , mabe not......

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Wow. Very impressed with the Makino there. That 1/2" was getting after it! Is the MA Ford your endmill of choice in this application? They look like they do a pretty good job. We use Data Flute here but may have to try some of the MA Ford offerings to compare.

 

I have seen the same thing with the high speed toolpaths on the Haas. The programmed feedrate isn't processed well by the Haas and it doesn't run anywhere near where it should. Especially the older machines.

 

Very good video! More more more!

 

I really like the MA Ford end mills and drills and I pretty much use them exclusively for aluminum. I only recently started using the 134 series for roughing because some of the production jobs on the A51 justified faster roughing. I ran the 1/2" tool at 600ipm and it lasted the entire job which ran for a week. I also really like their 229 series drills for aluminum. I can push those to 4X without pecking and a 1/4" drill I can run at 110 ipm. It took a while to get over the pucker factor :-) I use the 138 series Ford end mills for roughing and finishing on most jobs and they do a fantastic job but the 134 series can be fed 2.5X faster for roughing.

 

I have never used Data Flute, one of these days I will get one and try it out.

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I looked around to see if the Haas shows the actual feed during machining but I couldn't find it anywhere. The Makino was a rock solid 800 on the straights and about 250 around the ends of the part. I didn't think to look at what it was running the 1/4" tool at but it was probably 2X that of the Haas.

 

Glad you enjoyed the video.

 

I noticed it slowed down on the cornering. Turn corner rounding off and lets see that again. I bet it will be even more impressive ;)

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