Jump to content

Welcome to eMastercam

Register now to participate in the forums, access the download area, buy Mastercam training materials, post processors and more. This message will be removed once you have signed in.

Use your display name or email address to sign in:

Haas vs Makino part 2


Bob W.
 Share

Recommended Posts

These videos are stupid! Your comparing a Ferrari to a Honda. The reason the Haas is $45,000 cheaper is cause they save a lot of money by making the machine cheaper, lighter and not as strong as the japanese machines. A lot of folks would not have gone into buisness if it wasn't for Haas. Haas will never compare to a high end machine and we all know this.

 

In reality, there is only a $24K difference in cost between these two machines. That is peanuts compared to the performance advantage of the Makino. I wouldn't necessarily call this particular Makino as a "high end" machine. It comes from a "high end" manufacturer, however, this particular model is at the bottom of the Makino scale. It is an awesome machine for the money. Accurate, strong, flexible, etc, etc. There is NO comparison between these two machines. This Makino is vastly superior in every way.

 

Thats an outright lie buddy. My friends shop that I worked for for 6 years has 10 haas machines that are about 15 years old and will hold +-.0005 all day long. Its all in how they are taken care of. I've also seen alot of haas machines that where beat to sh@# and werent worth a darn.

 

Accuracy is a very misunderstood parameter. A Haas may have "local accuracy" but fails miserably in terms of "volumetric accuracy". As mentioned in one of Bob's posts, temperature change in the spindle or ball screws can play havoc, especially on large parts, or parts ( molds ) with long run times. A very simple way to check this is to indicate a fixed ring mounted to the table and set it to X0Y0 in one of the fixture offsets. At any given point during the day, call up that offset and move back to this position and "re-indicate" the ring and see how much movement you have on the indicator. It is appalling.

 

Sure, if you cut a rectangular slot in a piece of material and the run-time of the part is very short, yes, you can hold .0005" Unfortunately, this never happens in mold and die work. I can easily demonstrate "drift" on a Haas VM3 of upwards of .003"

On the Makino, it will hold "true position" all day long no matter what you throw at it with +/- .0002

 

I didn't know Ferrari made a car that only cost 20% more than a Honda. :turned:

 

He's comparing Makino's "budget" machine, to Haas' top of the line. If he were comparing a $200K+ Makino F5 with a $50,000 Plain Jane VF-3 with a carousel and 7500rpm spindle, the Ferrari/Honda analogy might be more accurate.

 

Precisely.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That Makino is pretty darned awesome! I want one!!!

 

You might also want to check this new model out

 

http://www.matsuura.co.jp/english/contents/products/vx.html

 

As you might notice the design looks familiar. But the spindle comes from Matsuura Japan and they also did all the parameter tuning of the drives so this model is much better than it's Taiwanese's coutnerpart.

 

The controller is also a Fanuc 31i which can get all the fancy options.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Excellent point Marshal. I wish other manufacturers did this too for comparison purposes. I think Okuma posts some basic prices, however, Makino keeps all their prices and specs very close to the vest.

 

Mori Seiki is the same way. There isn't a "price list" with option costs. They decide what you "need", and then they decide what they think you can afford, and quote accordingly.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sorry if I made anyone mad yesterday. I'm just tired of the whole Haas argument. I hear that sh@# all the time and just really gets me going.

 

No problem. I got tired of hearing it too. I actually wanted to see it, with some hard numbers and concrete results instead of the usual opinions and guestimates. That is why I decided to make a few videos.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I give Haas credit for one thing, and that's that they put the prices directly on their site. That's a good thing to do in my opinion, because then at least you know what you're getting into, and if the machine you're looking at is even a feasible option.

 

Agree 100%. I do think part of the reason the Japanese manufacturers don't post prices is the exchange rate but this might just be an excuse.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've always known Haas could not compete with the high end Asian/European machines.

It breaks my heart that we can't buy a world class US built machine tool anymore,

but I'll always have a soft spot in my heart for Haas. I owned 2 of them once.

I learned a lot about this business on them and feed my family with them for many years.

It's sort of like your first car.. it may have been a smoking pile of junk .. but you still loved it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You might also want to check this new model out

 

http://www.matsuura....roducts/vx.html

 

As you might notice the design looks familiar. But the spindle comes from Matsuura Japan and they also did all the parameter tuning of the drives so this model is much better than it's Taiwanese's coutnerpart.

 

The controller is also a Fanuc 31i which can get all the fancy options.

 

Ant idea what one of these costs? I did speak with the local Matsuura dealer (Selway) but they were pushing Robodrill and never even mentioned this machine, which makes me think it would be considerably more expensive. With the Fanuc 31 control it should be. The hardware that comes with the PS95 is very good and I think a great deal of the savings comes from the lower end control - Fanuc 0i.

 

I would love to have a Robodrill and think they are fantastic machines but they wouldn't have filled the requirements of what I was looking for very well. I was looking for a machine that would do everything the VM3 does (molds, prototype, etc...) and be able to take some of the production load off the A51 horizontal machine when things are really busy, and do so efficiently regardless of the material.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Bob, thanks for these videos. If you ever want someone to run them (dry) on a VF3SS I would be happy to - for time comparisons. I'd be interested in seeing if there were any differences between the VM and SS.

that's the second "post up that code, dude" request in this thread.

just sayin'

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Any idea why I can't see these videos? I just have a big empty space under the dialog of the post and nothing to click on. We are about 90% Haas here, so I would like to see what I'm missing.

 

Go to Youtube and search "haas vs Makino" and both videos will be right there.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ant idea what one of these costs? I did speak with the local Matsuura dealer (Selway) but they were pushing Robodrill and never even mentioned this machine, which makes me think it would be considerably more expensive. With the Fanuc 31 control it should be. The hardware that comes with the PS95 is very good and I think a great deal of the savings comes from the lower end control - Fanuc 0i.

 

I would love to have a Robodrill and think they are fantastic machines but they wouldn't have filled the requirements of what I was looking for very well. I was looking for a machine that would do everything the VM3 does (molds, prototype, etc...) and be able to take some of the production load off the A51 horizontal machine when things are really busy, and do so efficiently regardless of the material.

 

It will for sure cost more than the Quaser or a Robodrill for that matter. But for sure also less than a 3X Matsuura from Japan.

 

http://www.avnmaskin...0_E Leaflet.pdf

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Bob, thanks for these videos. If you ever want someone to run them (dry) on a VF3SS I would be happy to - for time comparisons. I'd be interested in seeing if there were any differences between the VM and SS.

we did 3d contour tests on the ss and it started loosing the surface after 40 ipm, to go faster they put a 12 mm pitch screw in where the vm is an 6 and the vf a 8
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mori Seiki is the same way. There isn't a "price list" with option costs. They decide what you "need", and then they decide what they think you can afford, and quote accordingly.

The guy across the way was looking at one of those NMV small pallet 5-Axis machines from Mori awhile back. They came in and gave him a rock bottom quote and had he not been paying full attention he would have fell for their BS. Here's what they do (pay close attention here); they give you that super low price to get you interested in their machine. They tell you "it's got everything you need" then when you really look at the quote and start putting the options on it to make it a real 5-Axis machine, comparable to a Matsuura or Makino (only talking FANUC controlled machines); you know important things like Dataserver, Work Offset Expansion, Tool Offset Expansion, MACRO Variable Expansion, WSEC, Look-Ahead expansion, Post Processor, Collision Detection/Simulation Software, etc...... :rofl::rofl: :rofl: :rofl: was all I could muster.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Agree 100%. I do think part of the reason the Japanese manufacturers don't post prices is the exchange rate but this might just be an excuse.

Sure would be nice for them to quote list pricing. BUt, be honest here, how many of you/your owners woudl refuse to even look at a machine if you though the list price was too high then move on to the next one? Be honest.... I

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sure would be nice for them to quote list pricing. BUt, be honest here, how many of you/your owners woudl refuse to even look at a machine if you though the list price was too high then move on to the next one? Be honest.... I

 

Haas sell through their "Haas factory outlet" so I guess their margin's are the same everywhere. Matsuura sell through subsidiaries one some markeds/regions and through local resellers on other. So here will for sure be a difference in margin's. So if they startede posting prices on the web this could give a lot of "noice" because of all the different prices.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.

Join us!

eMastercam - your online source for all things Mastercam.

Together, we are the strongest Mastercam community on the web with over 56,000 members, and our online store offers a wide selection of training materials for all applications and skill levels.

Follow us

×
×
  • Create New...