i found a way to fix every problem in X7

[The_kid]

so what would be a viable option? Catia? Think I'll sign up for some of these classes in college soon so I can get some hands on.

[Bob W.]

The two I would take a good hard look at are Siemens NX or Powermill. If Mastercam would fix the bugs and make the software more reliable I wouldn't even consider looking elsewhere. The biggest time waster during my programming day is finding work arounds when features that should get the job done aren't working correctly so I have to try 2-3 different approaches before I end up with something that works. I would guess this costs me a 2-3 hours a week which translates to about $7k to $10k per year in lost productivity. See guys, if your software was half as buggy I would see an annual improvement to my bottom line of $3500 to $5000 which would more than pay for my maintenance. I would be a much happier customer. See how eliminating the bugs can add value for your customers? I would be hard pressed to see that kind of gain with a revamped verify of reworked tool manager.

[The_kid]

Agreed! The work around and lying to software to make it work drives me insane.

[#Rekd™]

I can say for certainty that the latest update of Vericut was prompted by a problem we had. They sent a tech to our shop and we found the lines causing the undetected gouges. They went away and solved the problem and updated their software. Great response I thought.

 

I truly believe that you can compare Mastercam to BlackBerry....once a world leader. BlackBerry stayed complacent and the competition left them in the dust. They tried to catch up with a new great product but their users have gone some where else. The new MT in Mastercam is a small step in the right direction but the legacy of problems is still front and center.

[Bob W.]

I can say for certainty that the latest update of Vericut was prompted by a problem we had. They sent a tech to our shop and we found the lines causing the undetected gouges. They went away and solved the problem and updated their software. Great response I thought.

 

+1, there was a bug and it got fixed, imagine that

[Guest MTB Technical Services]

I'll probably get flamed and fragged for this but so be it.

As a self-professed Mastercam fanboi, I see two areas where CNC could make an immediate change to improve the points that Mr. Wolcott and others have made.

 

1) Toss the completely arbitrary and unrealistic yearly release schedule into the trash.

Maybe it's just my simple-mindedness but I don't believe you should release anything until it's actually ready.

Yes, this will require an adjustment to how maintenance is handled but it would be preferable to the current situation.

 

2) It's clear to me that there is a disconnect from real shop-floor experience in the development process.

The new Tool Assembly Manager is perfect example of that.

A Tool Assembly Manager without any provision for gage length or gage line reference is, quite frankly, useless and inexcusable.

Developers and managers need to get out of their cubes and spend quality time with real customers to see how these problems effect them.

 

 

I propose these suggestions as a self-professed fan-boi who really wants the product to improve.

Will anyone listen? Probably not.

C'est la vie.

[Watcher]

I wonder if Mark and Brian Summers do read these posts...

 

Imagine how many of the thousand viewers are their competitors... learning all about their problems and how they are turning into the next Blackberry of CAM systems...

 

It takes a lot of humility to change this scenario, and although they already caused harm enough to their customers, there's still loyalty around them.

 

Sometimes I question myself what would be the powers behind a decision to ignore your customers for years. Even with them being vocal about this.

• Are the Summers brothers planning to retire? (It would explain why not caring)
  
• Who is really running the company? Marketing guys?
  
• Why the silence? Why do they think they don't own an answer to their customers?
  
• Why beta program is not being respected?
  
• Do they realize how much they are losing/will lose with their current M.O.? This is a horrible propaganda - Fact based though.
  

These and several other questions surround my head...

 

I also wonder when they will email IHS and ask them to ban me...

 

Daniel

[Joe788]

I truly believe that you can compare Mastercam to BlackBerry....once a world leader. BlackBerry stayed complacent and the competition left them in the dust. They tried to catch up with a new great product but their users have gone some where else. The new MT in Mastercam is a small step in the right direction but the legacy of problems is still front and center.

 

I don't really think the Blackberry analogy fits, except for maybe the lathe product. Mastercam mill has continuously added some pretty cutting edge tool paths and functions over the years. The problem is the stability and bugs.

 

The Blackberry analogy would work if we were still on V9, and the bugs had been reduced to zero. For a lot of folks, that would probably be ideal. I'm willing to deal with bugs to get functionality, but what pisses people off is the bugs that don't get fixed while new functionality and bugs are introduced. If every year you add three new functions and 30 new bugs, after a few years the scales get pretty lopsided.

[Newbeeee™]

I'll probably get flamed and fragged for this but so be it.

As a self-professed Mastercam fanboi, I see two areas where CNC could make an immediate change to improve the points that Mr. Wolcott and others have made.

 

1) Toss the completely arbitrary and unrealistic yearly release schedule into the trash.

Maybe it's just my simple-mindedness but I don't believe you should release anything until it's actually ready.

Yes, this will require an adjustment to how maintenance is handled but it would be preferable to the current situation.

 

2) It's clear to me that there is a disconnect from real shop-floor experience in the development process.

The new Tool Assembly Manager is perfect example of that.

A Tool Assembly Manager without any provision for gage length or gage line reference is, quite frankly, useless and inexcusable.

Developers and managers need to get out of their cubes and spend quality time with real customers to see how these problems effect them.

 

 

I propose these suggestions as a self-professed fan-boi who really wants the product to improve.

Will anyone listen, probably not.

C'est la vie.

 

Well said Tim.

 

Also, I don't think CNC are complacent at all. Look at mill-turn, look at swiss, look at new verify etc. If they were complacent they'd be sat on their arse doing nothing.

I just think it's a case that they're doing too much - all at once - and have underestimated the task.

But yes, just because *someone* says you have to release an annual release, don't do it until it's ready!

 

Also also, Tim's comment about developing the software without talking to real-world customers:- Some of you guys were involved in a focus group back along.

Great concept and by memory it was the majority of you clever/elite guys here who went to it - so CNC couldn't have had a better audience.

What came of this or are they still happening?

[Guest MTB Technical Services]

I go back to a previous post, more open communication with the install base is needed.

 

Bob Wolcott's post should be a wake up call.

A current customer who is forced to vent here because his voice has fallen on deaf ears.

The passion in that post is telling.

 

Pick up the August issue of Manufacturing Engineering and you find a terrific spread on Mr. Wolcott's company on pg. 41.

Not a single mention of Mastercam in the entire article.

That would probably be different if his customer experience was different.

Those Makinos had to be programmed with some kind of CAM system.

[Thee Rickster ™]

The problem is the stability and bugs.

 

How about speed up the bug fix patches and take MU releases of the....,

 

'FOR MAINTENANCE ONLY' and let everyone have the bug fixes

[#Rekd™]

I don't really think the Blackberry analogy fits, except for maybe the lathe product. Mastercam mill has continuously added some pretty cutting edge tool paths and functions over the years. The problem is the stability and bugs.

 

The Blackberry analogy would work if we were still on V9, and the bugs had been reduced to zero. For a lot of folks, that would probably be ideal. I'm willing to deal with bugs to get functionality, but what pisses people off is the bugs that don't get fixed while new functionality and bugs are introduced. If every year you add three new functions and 30 new bugs, after a few years the scales get pretty lopsided.

 

My Blackberry analogy was that they are not listening to what their users want and need.....guess what happened to Blackberry's users?

 

Issuing new releases without fixing current bugs is pointless IMHO. As Rick pointed out customers who purchased the software are being asked to pay (maintenance fees) otherwise you are stuck with their problems. Not a good business model one would think.

[Thee Rickster ™]

John, Please don't provoke a chart from Joe.

[Tyler Robertson]

I wonder if Mark and Brian Summers do read these posts...

 

Imagine how many of the thousand viewers are their competitors... learning all about their problems and how they are turning into the next Blackberry of CAM systems...

 

It takes a lot of humility to change this scenario, and although they already caused harm enough to their customers, there's still loyalty around them.

 

Sometimes I question myself what would be the powers behind a decision to ignore your customers for years. Even with them being vocal about this.

• Are the Summers brothers planning to retire? (It would explain why not caring)
  
• Who is really running the company? Marketing guys?
  
• Why the silence? Why do they think they don't own an answer to their customers?
  
• Why beta program is not being respected?
  
• Do they realize how much they are losing/will lose with their current M.O.? This is a horrible propaganda - Fact based though.
  

These and several other questions surround my head...

 

I also wonder when they will email IHS and ask them to ban me...

 

Daniel

 

 

The posts are being read and I've forwarded them on - it's in our best interest to have feedback and listen to people using the software every day. Reality being that if something works for someone they usually don't jump to post on a forum about it (yes there are exceptions), so most forums just have problems on them, but given you guys are longtime users I think it carries more weight than someone using something for the first time and just not 'getting it'.

 

Daniel, your critiquing is harsh but generally respectful - although this forum isn't intended for office gossip, I wouldn't expect the banhammer unless you're, you know

[?Mark]

I wonder if Mark and Brian Summers do read these posts...

 

Imagine how many of the thousand viewers are their competitors... learning all about their problems and how they are turning into the next Blackberry of CAM systems...

 

It takes a lot of humility to change this scenario, and although they already caused harm enough to their customers, there's still loyalty around them.

 

Sometimes I question myself what would be the powers behind a decision to ignore your customers for years. Even with them being vocal about this.

• Are the Summers brothers planning to retire? (It would explain why not caring)
  
• Who is really running the company? Marketing guys?
  
• Why the silence? Why do they think they don't own an answer to their customers?
  
• Why beta program is not being respected?
  
• Do they realize how much they are losing/will lose with their current M.O.? This is a horrible propaganda - Fact based though.
  

These and several other questions surround my head...

 

I also wonder when they will email IHS and ask them to ban me...

 

Daniel

 

I had a pleasure of personally meeting Mark Summers. To say he doesn't care is not the right thing to do. Quite the contrary. But, the company has gotten quite large and a lot of the development is being done outside. That means less control. I also think it's the marketing that overrides the technical aspects. They set the goals and try to follow with the releases, ready or not......we have seen some of it on the " other" side of the forum...

[Redfire427]

The posts are being read and I've forwarded them on - it's in our best interest to have feedback and listen to people using the software every day. Reality being that if something works for someone they usually don't jump to post on a forum about it (yes there are exceptions), so most forums just have problems on them, but given you guys are longtime users I think it carries more weight than someone using something for the first time and just not 'getting it'.

 

Daniel, your critiquing is harsh but generally respectful - although this forum isn't intended for office gossip, I wouldn't expect the banhammer unless you're, you know

 

Tyler,

 

I truly do hope that the right people have this brought to their attention. After my meeting with Brian Summers ( Vice President ), Doug Nemeth ( Corporate Sales Manager ) and Kevin Hesch ( In-House Solution Sales ) last summer, I came out of the meeting with the general sense that the "upper tier" of CNC Software is completely out of touch with their customer base, and have no clue as to the severity of their core customers issues and complaints. I asked a lot of pointed questions to which the answers were met with red faces. My main agenda was trying to get them to understand that their main customer base was less interested in new bells and whistles, and more interested in getting what we already have to function the way it is supposed to. Again, issues that were introduced in "X", ten years ago, are still outstanding issues.

 

I have done nothing but support In-House Solutions for 21 years and counting, and we currently hold 14 Mastercam Mill/Lathe licences. I believe my voice should be heard. Paying maintainence for these seats equals a lot of money. If our company treated our customers with the same disregard that CNC Software treats their customers, our customers would turn their backs on us. Perhaps the time has come for Mastercam's user base to follow suit.

 

Carmen

[Watcher]

I had a pleasure of personally meeting Mark Summers. To say he doesn't care is not the right thing to do. Quite the contrary. But, the company has gotten quite large and a lot of the development is being done outside. That means less control. I also think it's the marketing that overrides the technical aspects. They set the goals and try to follow with the releases, ready or not......we have seen some of it on the " other" side of the forum...

 

Mark, I think you touched very valid points. I have a few questions I'd like your help...

 

If you were the ceo, what would you do?

What's the right way to show your customer you care?

 

Please consider we're talking about any consumer product. Not only MC.

 

It takes a lot of empathy with your customer to do it. Answering these 2 questions solves 50% of the equation I guess...

 

Please don't take me wrong.... I'm making a honest question here...

[CamMan1]

One thing I think CNC software should pay close attention to is with every release more and more of their customers seem to be running out of patience with the bugs. I had been pretty vocal around when X3 was coming out and things never got better and I just gave up. I believe a lot of CNC's customers have some serious contempt for the upper management at CNC and how things are being run regarding the reliability of their software. With every release I am seeing more long time Mastercam fanbois starting to express frustration at the bugs... If I had a friend getting ready to start a shop came to me and asked what cam package to buy I would not tell them to look at Mastercam first. it would be on the list, but not first. If I was starting over from scratch I would probably NOT buy Mastercam and I'll bet a lot of other current Mastercam customers share this sentiment.

 

I know all software is buggy but Mastercam takes the cake. I recently bought Vericut and spent more than double what I paid for my Mastercam level three license. It is one fantastic piece of software and I have zero complaints about the functionality, reliability, or customer service. It is a great addition to the shop and owning it produces a very tangible return with respect to work flow and efficiency. See CNC, it can be done. Complex software can be made to run reliably, it just has to be a priority. Cost isn't the issue here, it is what I am getting in return for the cost. Continue to take your customers for granted and your competition will be kicking your @ss in ten years. I will change my CAM package just to spite you.

 

I am one of your customers and I am tired of feeling like a first class, maintenance paying SUCKER!

 

Amen Brother!!

[gcode]

I spent a week in Tolland last summer, and to say they don't care couldn't be further from the truth

The people there care very much, work very hard and I'm sure threads like this are painful to read.

I think the problems we are seeing are driven by several factors.

X is a conglomeration of old legacy DOS code ( wireframe and legacy surfacing),

home grown code ( 2D, 3D high speed, drilling 5X legacy toolpaths) and 3rd party stuff

(UBVS, advanced 5X, Codemeter etc)

Getting all this to play nice together has got to be a coders nightmare.

Add in tight (unrealistic ???) schedules driven by a desire to deliver value for our maintenance dollars

and you've got a perfect storm that has brought us to where we are now.

[?Mark]

Mark, I think you touched very valid points. I have a few questions I'd like your help...

 

If you were the ceo, what would you do?

What's the right way to show your customer you care?

 

Please consider we're talking about any consumer product. Not only MC.

 

It takes a lot of empathy with your customer to do it. Answering these 2 questions solves 50% of the equation I guess...

 

Please don't take me wrong.... I'm making a honest question here...

 

I agree with most of what you're saying. But I think this company has grown big enough that there is plenty the CEO can't possibly be aware of.

I think CNC needs to focus more and concentrate on fewer things at the time. Example: verification/backplot and new tool manager. Neither one of them is ready for a release imo. Going for one at a time would make it a lot easier to "nail" it right the first time around.

 

From personal experience I think marketing having too much power is a bad thing. They're after the sales NOW. There has to be a balance between marketing and the technical/customer support side. Easier said than done

 

Bottom line: When marketing/sales see "$" they usually can't see straight after that. If you let them run the show, they'll run the company to the ground.

[Guest]

If you were the ceo, what would you do?

Rule #1 in business, if you don't take care of you customer, somebody else will. That may be cliche, but the bottom line is that it is 100% truth. Even then, there are no guarantees. As somebody who is responsible for end user support of something technical in nature, CNC Software and I have many things in common. I have many customers in here and I think for the most part, they would all agree, my company provides excellent customer support. Can we do better? Absolutely, and every day we try to do better than the previous day. That goes from the top (Bill Selway) all the way through the organization. We know our customers have many, many, many choices when they are purchasing capital equipment and we are grateful for their continued business. That HAS to be the business model plain and simple. If it were not, we would not be who we are in the machine distribution world.

 

 

What's the right way to show your customer you care?

Do the opposite of ignore them. If the customer calls and you cannot take the call right away, call back within a reasonable amount of time. If they e-mail, reply within a reasonable amount of time. Personally, I'm a work-a-holic so if a customer e-mails me on a weekend, I respond. I may not have an answer, but I at least take the time to respond to their inquiry. Their business matters to me and because fo that, we will make every effort to resolve the issue or answer the question as quickly as possible. Customer Service. It's the name of the game, it's what keeps us ALL in business.

 

Just sayin'

[Bob W.]

I think the problems we are seeing are driven by several factors.

X is a conglomeration of old legacy DOS code ( wireframe and legacy surfacing),

home grown code ( 2D, 3D high speed, drilling 5X legacy toolpaths) and 3rd party stuff

(UBVS, advanced 5X, Codemeter etc)

Getting all this to play nice together has got to be a coders nightmare.

Add in tight (unrealistic ???) schedules driven by a desire to deliver value for our maintenance dollars

and you've got a perfect storm that has brought us to where we are now.

 

Upper management has to step it up and make it a priority to straighten this out. There needs to be a little less emphasis on the new features and more on cleaning up the software architecture. For me, this is the low hanging fruit and it would have the largest effect on my bottom line. Eliminating the bugs and getting the software working right would allow me to get sooo much more work done every year. I am in the process of training two new employees on how to program. Do you know how frustrating it is for them when things don't work right and they don't know the work-around? It makes me realize just how many work-arounds have become second nature to me.

[oneyankfan1]

I havent been using Mastercam NEAR as long as some of you, but it seems to me that there are two types of users,

1. The ones that make every excuse in the book for why Mastercam is the way it is and will never say anything bad about the software, even if it is the truth.(Which you should all recive commision off of that!)

2. The ones that expect to get the software they pay for functioning correctly and with great customer service.

I wonder how everyone would act if Mastercam was their NEW vehicle and CNC Software was their dealership, my how different this thread would be!

[mayday]

I was there also, we stressed many issues. Some they took to heart but others were washed away. Things looked promising in the early days of M/T. communication has seemed to be not important anymore. The simple fact when X came out with all the hype about machine defs and windows compatibility to name a few

#1 Implement new features

#2 make them fail safe

#3 elimintate the old feature.

Look at tool manager. All the old function is still there. I find no real need to use the new tool manager besides the fact it’s far from ready. Too many conflicts within the software. Personally I think why there has been little or nothing done to fix Lathe is because they think M/T will replace it. Some communication with customers would go a long way with this, but Silence seems to be the answer

[Watcher]

Rule #1 in business, if you don't take care of you customer, somebody else will. That may be cliche, but the bottom line is that it is 100% truth. Even then, there are no guarantees. As somebody who is responsible for end user support of something technical in nature, CNC Software and I have many things in common. I have many customers in here and I think for the most part, they would all agree, my company provides excellent customer support. Can we do better? Absolutely, and every day we try to do better than the previous day. That goes from the top (Bill Selway) all the way through the organization. We know our customers have many, many, many choices when they are purchasing capital equipment and we are grateful for their continued business. That HAS to be the business model plain and simple. If it were not, we would not be who we are in the machine distribution world.

 

 

Do the opposite of ignore them. If the customer calls and you cannot take the call right away, call back within a reasonable amount of time. If they e-mail, reply within a reasonable amount of time. Personally, I'm a work-a-holic so if a customer e-mails me on a weekend, I respond. I may not have an answer, but I at least take the time to respond to their inquiry. Their business matters to me and because fo that, we will make every effort to resolve the issue or answer the question as quickly as possible. Customer Service. It's the name of the game, it's what keeps us ALL in business.

 

Just sayin'

 

Looks like James and I have the same opinion about how to deal with customers. I always tell my wife that if someday I start my own business, I'll go to bankrupt very early or I'll get rich soon. The reason is because I'll treat my customers so well, that I can go to bankrupt soon.

 

So my two cents on what I would do if I was Mark Summers:

1. I'd keep marketing armed to the teeth as they do today, but R&D would be 1st priority - If they needed an Abrams tank to work I'd get one for them.
    
   
2. Testing and QC guys would be the heroes in the company. Their inputs and outputs would drive the company and the way we develop & release our products.
    
   
3. I'd increase the number of people in QC, and would build a team composed of developers that would work on the bug's backlog of the past decade. The group would exist for as long as it takes to get rid of the backlog.
    
   
4. I'd create surveys or other feedback collection mechanisms so we could prioritize which of these longstanding bugs would be fixed first. The posts in this forum would also be greatly considered and a start point.
    
   
5. I'd meet with my VARs and hear from them. This meeting would be intended solely for QC and feedback collection. No marketing, no demos, no sales discussions...
    
   
6. I'd put even more focus in developing the M/T product to handle the most modern machine out there. This is necessary to the company's survival in the next decade IMHO.
    
   
7. I'd make a very simple rule for the entire management team: Don't waste your time doing meetings. Spend it doing what was agreed on them.
    
   
8. I'd put someone to act as a quality control evangelist in the company. Even the gardner needs to be told in an often basis that we don't exist without happy customers.
    
   
9. I'd create an ombudsman channel. I'd create a culture where retaliation is strictly forbidden. (I work for a company with 350K employees and it works)
    
   
10. I'd reinvent QC - I'd create more filters, more empowerment to them, more ways to collect and prioritize fixes.
     
    
11. I'd bring all my suppliers to the table and explain them that QA is the name of my company now. And hear from them how they think they can help me.
     
    
12. I'd forget the yearly schedule for new releases. 18 months sounds reasonable and aligned with industry practices. If I wanted to maintain the 1 year schedule, then I'll put a few lazy people in the company to work and hire more if necessary.
     
    
13. Again, marketing would not dictate all the directions. They would do go-to-market studies and help R&D to understand customer needs. And then sell these solutions later.
     
    
14. I'd not release new products with new stuff when is not ready. I'd develop it in parallel and only get it out when beta testers says "OK!"
     
    
15. Technical staff would not respond to marketing guys. They would respond to the heads in R&D and QC, and these, to me.
    

And my two cents about how I'd show my customers I care:

1. I'd send a letter to my customers through my VARs. No need to be a public one (Of course someone would leak it) - There I'd say we understand the situation, that we apologize and that we are re-inventing the company to make them happy. I'd not even ask marketing guys to help me with this letter. It would be one from the deep of my heart, as someone's customer and responsible entrepreneur.
    
   
2. I'd make my bug fixing team to publish fixes in a biweekly basis. No new functionality, just fixes. If the user is under maintenance, he gets also fixes for his enhancements. (It's drastic cultural change, but the backlog is huge as well - Frequency matters a lot)
    
   
3. I'd respond to issues in this forum, very promptly, even if in private. If people are vocal here today is because their requests fell on deaf ears at least once... Having your customers posting your shortcomings here is bad propaganda. The ironic side of all this is that it's caused by excessive marketing.
    
   
4. I'd respond and act for issues reported in the beta program. I'd make sure all people doing this thankless job for my company would get the treatment and respect they deserve.
    
   
5. I'd tell my VARs to contact me directly if necessary if a key customer sketch the minor signal of unhappiness with my product. I'd encourage everyone with issues to contact my ombudsman/evangelist.
    
   
6. I'd dump some old stuff in MC, as the graphics, as a way to get rid of code that no longer add value. I'd replace it by components used in other mainstream solutions.
    
   
7. I'd create a customer portal so my customers could interact with me, as mentioned here: http://camzone.org/2...er-care-in-cax/
   

Not trying to be an oracle here, but that's where I'd start if I was on Mark Summers shoes...

 

People may think all this noise is just bad luck but it is in fact result of years not listening the most important guy: The customer. If CNC management think the current formula is working for them, then our math is really bad.

 

Daniel