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Dynamic Milling with open pocket


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Hertz, by the lack of response to this thread the magic you I and others seem to be albe to do is just too much for a lot of people.

 

X7 Peel mill is now my new best friend. I use that for everything now. I did a ouside sqaure chain .2 bigger than the part. I then then the profile of the part. I then peel milled everything expect the front. I then did a .70 wide slot and peel millind that for the front. Done in less than 3 minutes I have roughed a 316SS part. Take a corn cobb and rough and 6 ipm and 36 sfm. Will take you 20 minutes and you are happy. I went through a shop today part is taking 157 seconds that should be taking 45 seconds. Some of their part runs are 15k to 80k a year of a parts. Lets do some math for the ROI crowd. Taking 80K of parts and reducing the 157 seconds to 45 seconds gives us 112 seconds per part, but really gives us 224 seconds per part. Now at 80k of parts we come with a profit of 4977 hours using Peel Mill verses the normal way. We take a standard shop rate of $100/hr and that company on one part will make $497,777 over their current methods playing ti safe becuase the programmer is comfortable with how this have always been. Yes please keep ingoring this thread and keep letting peope bad mouth Mastercam all they want. I will be glad to go help that company start making an extra $2 to $5 million and year in profit just using these toolpaths. Maybe they will not compalin like some do when they see my rate. Funny thing these companies like to see me coming and like to have me help them out anytime I can. I for the life of me can't figure out why people still keep shying away from High Speed Toolpaths. :coffee:

 

Oh well can lead a horse ot water and give him the water on a silver platter, but doesn't mean they will drinik it.

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Nice work guys love the videos. I struggle trying to figure out If I want to take a bigger step over or a smaller with more feed. Never really figured out what works "faster" We have a local tool grind shop around here that makes so really good endmills. Place is called Oakview Tool and they supply a lot of the Medical shops. I will try to post a few videos myself. But I've have a 3/4 rougher (5 flute) with 2.25 loc that is can take full cut at 20% (.15) stepover 600sfm (3056 rpm) at .01-.015 per rev (33ipm) and it loves it. I was told I could run anywhere from 500-1000sfm all day any day with these cutters and the guy hasn't been wrong yet.

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I would suggest you think about the 1000 sfm and get away from the idea of 500 sfm. Again look to the money in gained time and not the cost of the tool in your decision making, Educating the programmer is really the big part of my Consulting Services. Allowing companies to gain productivity and use the tools they already have in ways they never have before it the game changer Mastercam X7 is giving companies like never before. The 1000 sfm really start to get you in that ideal heat zone for the cutting tool. The way the coatings are desgned you get into what is the sweet spot for the coating ot work in its designed parameters. The killer is the coolant mentality so many still cannot allow them selfs to get away from. Shop today cutting aluminum with coolant. I see a awesome cooljet air nozzel and running coolant. Take that 40 minute roughing cycle wet and lets do it dry in 5 minutes. Let take all that stress and everything out of the equation and allow you to really allow that equipment to pay for itself. I like recommendations they are great ways to see how really off my rocker I am.

 

I think the bigger step overs are not as important as the feed per tooth and sfm you are using. 1000 sfm using .003 feed per tooth is 76 imp so with a .15 stepover you are looking at some pretty impressive Cubic Inch Material Removal. You use 500 sfm and .003 feed per tooth you are 38 imp again decent, but I would think about .005 to .007 per tooth feed rate. Take my agressive idea of 1000 SFM and .007 ipm puts you at 178imp. So if you got 1 hour of cycle out of that cutter. In 60 minutes you would cover 10680 inches. You cut the low side at 38 imp you are covering 2280 inches. The slower feedrate give you 5 hours of life. So in 5 hours this was cover 11400 inches of cut. Now that tool cost $300. The slwoer way is $60/hr of tool life. My way is $300/hr of tool life. Thing is I did the same amount of work in one hour than the other way did in 5 being safe and slower with that tool. Again my $100/hr shop rate I gain 4 hours of production per part, but really gain 8 hours since I got 4 hours to put on the next part. In one week using the slower safer comfortable way got 10 parts done at $1000 each. My way making the same part I got 40 parts done at $1000 each. My way cost the company $12000 in tooling cost to produce $40k worth of parts. The slower way made $10k of parts costing the compay $2400. In one year of production the company spent $600k in tooling to produce $2 million worth of prodcut. The slower safer way produced $500k worth of parts costing the company $120k in tooling. Wich way do you think as a programmer should we decide to program and run our programs and parts?

 

Thing I tell many programmers is they are the CEO of the company in most asspects. Every job they do sohuld be look at with the mind set they own it, they need to P & L every job they do. Why is making money or why is not making money? I told an owenr today I would offer a $200 pool to those in the company that can help come up with the best improvement time on a job in the company. Take the current run time and then get the proven improved run time. Comptetion will be based off current proven tooling and cost of that, run time and other things to come up with a complete cost. Then the improved way will evaulted the same way. The job that has the highest precentage per part of reduction wins them the money. I told him I would offer a $1000 if it were my company. He has over 50 machines. Now imagine if 50 machines in one week gained 1 hour prodcutivity each in his company, it just gained 2500 hours of productivity a year. Again using my $100/hr shop rate he would gain $500k in profit over his current process. I think spending $1000 is well worth seeing what his employees can do. How many owners think this way? How many get it and see the bigger picture? Takes money to make money, but what if the money gained became a pool in which the employees got bonuses from? What if for every thing reduced employees got an credit for time off? What if everytime a programmer took that 20 year old way and made it sing and dance they got rewards for it? I would not be sitting here even typing this. Thing is owners for the most part pinch pennies and cheap out. They constantly wrap $100 bills around parts being simple and stuck in their ways.

 

I am crazy becuase this is how I approach business. This is how I think a company should run in today's time. 100,000,000 people in China prodcue the same that 11,000,000 Americans do. What does that tell you? I heard about a lot of the manufcaturing job that are not here today did not leave they were replaced by robots and automation. Part of that is working smarter and faster not harder. See it from the idea you own the job you control the P & L of every job you touch. Then see how much your company grows and moves forward. Might be suprised how well you get at your craft, but also how much a difference it makes on your fellow employees and the company you work for.

 

I am off the soap box and will let my crazy ideas keep putting food on my table, I am thankful to God to know what I know and do what I can do. Yeah again crazy talk. :w00t::lol:

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David, peel mill si like an open pocket process. Think abotu a funnel for your shape. I just did a Square U for an outside shape and a U for the inside shape to rough a part. Peel mill ate it for lunch. I have done all types of werid shaped the thing is I leave it open on both sides. I may start with say .7 wide for one side then open up to 4.0 on the other side. Peel mill just looks at that and say hum okay looks like fun. I say yes it is because I love seeing those chips a flying. :2guns: That is what it sounds like when cutting with peel mill the correct way. :guitar: It is music to my ears it is like hearing new money printed.

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Man, I gotta get some video of my turn-key demo.

  • 1018,
  • 1/2" tool, Sandvik Plura 4fl
  • 1"doc
  • 6500 rpm
  • 650imp

Okuma OSP 200

 

We ran it up to the bleeding edge: 800ipm, but the toolpath was not consistent enough to maintain. Yes Mastercam dynamic's inherent flaw. Try morphing a square to a circle. The first several laps cutting corners you will get 4x-5x over engagement..fyi

 

If your not cutting aluminum hog-outs at 1000+ipm...well, you should be.

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Hertz, by the lack of response to this thread the magic you I and others seem to be albe to do is just too much for a lot of people.

 

X7 Peel mill is now my new best friend. I use that for everything now. I did a ouside sqaure chain .2 bigger than the part. I then then the profile of the part. I then peel milled everything expect the front. I then did a .70 wide slot and peel millind that for the front. Done in less than 3 minutes I have roughed a 316SS part. Take a corn cobb and rough and 6 ipm and 36 sfm. Will take you 20 minutes and you are happy. I went through a shop today part is taking 157 seconds that should be taking 45 seconds. Some of their part runs are 15k to 80k a year of a parts. Lets do some math for the ROI crowd. Taking 80K of parts and reducing the 157 seconds to 45 seconds gives us 112 seconds per part, but really gives us 224 seconds per part. Now at 80k of parts we come with a profit of 4977 hours using Peel Mill verses the normal way. We take a standard shop rate of $100/hr and that company on one part will make $497,777 over their current methods playing ti safe becuase the programmer is comfortable with how this have always been. Yes please keep ingoring this thread and keep letting peope bad mouth Mastercam all they want. I will be glad to go help that company start making an extra $2 to $5 million and year in profit just using these toolpaths. Maybe they will not compalin like some do when they see my rate. Funny thing these companies like to see me coming and like to have me help them out anytime I can. I for the life of me can't figure out why people still keep shying away from High Speed Toolpaths. :coffee:

 

Oh well can lead a horse ot water and give him the water on a silver platter, but doesn't mean they will drinik it.

 

Or some of us are stuck in shops with old thinking. :( Had one guy take out an advanced tool path from a job because the owner did not like the way it ran. They really can't grasp that lighter and faster is better. The just see the machines making all these moves and the longer programs and think it can't be good. Would give my left nut to work in a shop that is really using tools and tool paths the way they are meant to be. One of the happiest days of my life was when I was introduced to feed mills. :smoke:

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First off, I know this thread has gone off a bit the OP but I have to say that there's been some good points made here.

I've been experimenting with these tool paths since early X6 and have found the very useful in most cases. I really like the chaining methods that xycnc brought up. I hadn't considered those but will be using them when ever possible.

 

Try morphing a square to a circle. The first several laps cutting corners you will get 4x-5x over engagement..fyi

 

This is something that I noticed early on and my solution was to hit the corners of the square with a regular 2d Core Mill to just enough to smooth them out and then apply a 2d Dynamic Core Mill tool path to complete the roughing. Works great.

Would be nice it CNC would enhance the toolpath to avoid having to do this, but... well see were that goes.

 

At what radial depth? This makes the whole difference. Anyone can run 650IPM with a 1" depth. Now enter in the radial factor, xxxx starts changing.

 

^^^ Seriously?... I mean, I know that when you start throwing the radial factor into it "xxxx starts changing" but you can't say 650ipm, 1" D.O.C., on 1018 is not impressive....

 

To Crazy, I'm not an owner but hear you loud and clear. Thinking has to change at all levels to stay competitive now days.

It may sound crazy to some, but you hit the nail the head. Thumbs up.

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^^^ Seriously?... I mean, I know that when you start throwing the radial factor into it "xxxx starts changing" but you can't say 650ipm, 1" D.O.C., on 1018 is not impressive....

 

 

What I mean is it is not impressive if he is only taking .01 radial. Works out to 6.5 cubic inch/min. Even .02 is not impressive. That's why I asked what his radial cut is. Sorry if I offended you.

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My Video above was 1" D.O.C, 10% step over at 1308 sfm using just basic peel mill. In the 316 SS example I did 450 sfm 1" D.O.C 10% step over.

 

Rob from CCC gave me a good one to think about. How many people take finish cuts and full depth of endmill? Think about HSS toolpath as taking finish cuts through the whole part and not the last cut. By moving faster and engaging the cutter with more material you fight chatter lighter cuts always produce.

 

Had one guy take out an advanced tool path from a job because the owner did not like the way it ran. They really can't grasp that lighter and faster is better. The just see the machines making all these moves and the longer programs and think it can't be good.
I would ask him when does he plan to close his doors? When does he think his last customer will move their work out of that shop. I know an owner who is 79 year old and he sees it, so if someone who has been in machining for almost 60 years can see it and think it is the way to go, not sure why your owner can not see the Forrest for the trees. :vava:

 

Chris no I do not mind at all it is up to the educators to educate. College is great, but most are about theory I am am hands on get it done.

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What I mean is it is not impressive if he is only taking .01 radial. Works out to 6.5 cubic inch/min. Even .02 is not impressive. That's why I asked what his radial cut is. Sorry if I offended you.

 

Not offended at all.

I'm just surprised that you would call out Chris on that. Through this forum I've watch him develop some pretty amazing data for this precisely these types of apps. I tip my hat to him for taking the time and effort and for sharing it with us here.

 

I also assumed that if you've used these toolpaths in the past, you may know that it's pretty typical to use for %7 to %15 radial depth of cut depending on machining conditions.

Not trying to sound condescending, just explaining myself is all.

It's actually good that this came up. These toolpaths are still new to a lot of people (even me) and it's all about learning what works best. :cheers:

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Not offended at all.

I'm just surprised that you would call out Chris on that. Through this forum I've watch him develop some pretty amazing data for this precisely these types of apps. I tip my hat to him for taking the time and effort and for sharing it with us here.

 

I also assumed that if you've used these toolpaths in the past, you may know that it's pretty typical to use for %7 to %15 radial depth of cut depending on machining conditions.

Not trying to sound condescending, just explaining myself is all.

It's actually good that this came up. These toolpaths are still new to a lot of people (even me) and it's all about learning what works best. :cheers:

I still have a hard time believing that. I actually have a tonne of video on youtube of HSM. The only thing I questioned was tool deflection. I would love to see how long the tool will actually last before snapping. I'm not saying he didn't do it, I just said its hard to believe seeing as I have done a lot of HSM. That's all.

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I still have a hard time believing that. I actually have a tonne of video on youtube of HSM. The only thing I questioned was tool deflection. I would love to see how long the tool will actually last before snapping. I'm not saying he didn't do it, I just said its hard to believe seeing as I have done a lot of HSM. That's all.

 

WOW!

Well then, I have to say, if you've done so much HSM and you're still having a hard time believing than you're doing it wrong.

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Hertz, you are pushing it way harder with .06 step over in your video so I am also having to wonder what is your point? .05 is nothing for that tool and I would not even hesitate to run a machine that fast if it could handle it. Years ago I use to machine Aluminum at 1400 imp with a 24k spindle on a router. .01 depth of cut and fast as the machine would go. It would accelerate and decelerate in the corners, but open area was 1400 ipm and I loved seeing it. Like I said before if I can get the tool life to offset the time I will break a 100 tools a week if I can make money doing it. I seen a carbide ball endmill while turning bend to almost 45 degrees and not break. 16 lbs so what a non rotating tool has a light breaking point than a turning tools does any day of the week. Question is does that machine use Big-Plus?

 

Had a job back in Florida years ago drilling holes for bride plates. We use to drill a .875 hole in 1/2" thikc AR plate in 7 seconds a hole. Every 4 to 5 thousand hole tool would tear up and need ot be replace. Owner was pissed it was costing $175 for the tool. He told me to slow it down to keep that from happening. I told him no it was my shop to run and at 7 seconds a hole verse 30 seconds hole to be safe was not worth it. He argued and I did the math on 3000 holes. He shut up and bought me 10 more drills.

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