Newmachines comming

[Machineguy]

I was told last Thursday we are buying 2 new machines so we can pull in the major outside work.

2 Haas VM-5SS were budgeted.These are loaded including the new scrap conveyers. I was never asked about tthe buy, but was told I was to be involved in the selection.

Didnt happen. I program, run and do the light maintaince on out VM-3 asd SL-10.

So long story short, we can look at other machines. We need 2 x 50" min in "X" travel.

Looked at Mori. I could get one for the price of 2 Haas. OUch !

Looked at Hardige( Bridgeport is what the mill machines are called now) Same price as Haas. Dont know how good they are.

Doosan ? I havent called yet. but will in a bit. How good are the mills? I see a OM control. VM6500 is close.

 

Any Idea guys. This is going to happen real fast. (Well ok, its the midwest) I see machines on the floor in January.

 

Machineguy.

 

By the way, I dont know if the Haas VM-5SS can run hard 2 shifts, 5 days a week and stay running. Tolerance is +/- .002. Im concerned about mismatch on the long runs from cold to hot. We are air conditioned here.

[GoetzInd]

There was just a topic on this somewhere. I would look at Doosan. Good bang for buck IMO.

 

Mike

[Thee Dragracer1951]

Doosan for sure!!

[Machineguy]

Not engraved in stone till the check is written, but i have little say. So as it stands:

2 x VF5SS fully loaded with the new style chip conveyers, probes, ect.

1x DS30SSY. This one was not in the budget, so its up in the air. This would be fully loaded w/ bar feeder.

 

I need a beer.

 

Machineguy

[jeff]

 

Looked at Mori. I could get one for the price of 2 Haas. OUch !

 

 

There's a reason for this

[Machineguy]

Hey Jeff,

Why don't you come over and explain it to the the money bags. They wont listen to me. I've been doing this work for 38 years. Ive run a lot of CNC machines.

THe better machines are made in Japan, Korea, and Germany.

 

Machineguy

[mkd]

Haas fanboy alert.

 

if, in fact, it is two for the price of one then the question is simple.

is one Mori going to produce as much as two Haas'? that answer is plain to see, fanboy or not.

 

If you look at a smaller Taiwanese Makino PS95 vs. a VF3, the price is much closer with the makino being the better deal in many instances.

[Machineguy]

The doosan is close, But the budget is locked in. It will take 2 mills to run the production at the rate we need. 1 machine is not enough.

I dont mind Haas. It just going to run 2 shifts hard. Parts are 3 hr run time.Swapping parts is about 10 min.

I guess we will see, but they havent signed the check yet. We may not see anythig till the new year.

[jeff]

Hey Jeff,

Why don't you come over and explain it to the the money bags. They wont listen to me. I've been doing this work for 38 years. Ive run a lot of CNC machines.

THe better machines are made in Japan, Korea, and Germany.

 

Machineguy

 

LOL I will, as soon as I can figure out how to convince my boss of the same thing.

[crazy^millman]

That is where a Pallet Pool and going to a lights out would pay for itself real quick. They are only looking at 16 hours a day if running standard 8 hour shifts. That would be 80 hours of the 168 hours they could run a week with good pallet pool system. Man you just do not understand that is a lot of money. Yes it seems like a lot of money upfront, but if you got 150 hour a week out of that system with 2 spindles you would gain in one year 3500 extra hours of production capacity, Now lets use my favorite shop rate of $100/hr that would be an extra $350k of money made on top of the $400k you would make on the work you were already planning on running. Say you got a 5 year contract to run these parts then money bags is not going to be making an extra $1.75 Million in money on his $2 million for going ahead and putting the best system in place. So go out and buy 2 cheaper machines to save money now, but not make an extra $1.75 million over the next 5 years with buying those machine and hope in 5 years of running them hard they will still be around. Yes it still amazes me the logical thought process of people. Every Hour A week over my 150 estimate is $5k more money bags would be making so if you got 100% uptime that would be and extra $450k of money they would be making over the 5 years. Yes they got it all figured out. Tell them good luck and when that works leaves sorry all you can so it smile because they already planned on it leaving going in this direction.

 

Oh yeah I did not do any factoring of what you would gain with improved feed rates and spindle speeds I know you could achieve with a higher level of machine. This is not a bash on HAAS this is a reality check for the money bags of the world. I also did not beat the drum of 2 spindles running all the time either I kept this on the low side to prove a point.

[mkd]

..... Yes it still amazes me the logical thought process of people.....

 

one word: RISK

 

pallet pool capable of 50" parts would be a pretty penny to say the least, therefore the payoff my be too long a time frame.

[crazy^millman]

one word: RISK

 

We take risks everyday we get out of bed and head into work. I guess I assumed people understood there are risks, but the idea is how much risks is too how much reward? "Have work and need efficient ways to run it" and the only option I seen thrown out here is VMC not HMC. Not light outs but manned hours. There are those risks we take without knowing the end results and there are those we risks we never know to take, because we are not sure what the results will be. I wanted to give the people counting the money a different way in which they can count their money. Time is money and money is spent on time used or not used and so many people forget this today. "We are planning on running 2 shifts 5 days a week." Guess what other countries have no problem run 3 shifts 7 days a week doing that same work. Who in the long run is going to produce parts cheaper? The person using 10 machines and 50 people in 10 operations per parts? The company using 2 machines producing the parts in 2 operations lights out? America is still a top producing country and to many people keep saying the gap is because of skilled labor. Job are not being lost as much as people doing things smarter and more efficient with fewer. The world we live in I did not make it this way, but I wish more people would see the rest of the world and what they are doing. Call it risks and that cost is too much, but I have seen 100's of shops close stuck in the "well that is too much risk mentality". Here is a prime example of a need only been looked at with a few set of eyes from what I have gathered here in these few postings. I would hope 10 machine builders were brought in and asked to evaluate the full operations and see what can be done to make the company run more efficiently. Educate and understand the process and then once you understand the process looks for the ways in which the process can be improved. You are happy getting by then you can get by all day long, thing is when will getting by leave you behind? Technology is moving along and other countries are embracing what a lot of American shops are ignoring. I go into shops and people are still using a V9 version of Mastercam. I go into shops and people are happy running their 20 year old machines. They are happy and they see little risks. Then you go into shops they have spent money on newer machines and newer process methods and they have to turn work down. They are running machines at Max capacity and looking for ways to improve that. They are not happy with getting by they are looking to expand and grow. Thing is stuff will always need to be made. Will your company be one that gets by with doing the process or will you be the company that risks you can do it better and faster and meet or exceed yours customers expectations? Tell me who will be getting work 5 or 10 years from now the company that planned to be able to do that work or the one that was able to get by? No 100% ways to know, but history shows us the ones prepared to do it balanced and understand the whole process are the ones that can and will be doing it. This is an example of what could be and the extra $1.75 million in 5 years on top of the $2 million if things stayed level would pay for any cell system I am aware of out there with plenty to spare in the owner or owners pockets and make the life of the workforce that much better in the process. Work is leaving America in the droves and they are using our old iron and machines to do it. If they are doing the same work as you with cheaper workers how does an American company offset that? Ask HAAS how many of their machine are going to China, and to other parts of the world? Ask the other machine tool builders where they get their orders for machines? Yeah China is using those same machine with workers making a lot less an hour because they have tons of workers.

 

Risk is always part of any equation, but the risk here is not what can we do the risk here what is not stepping up going to mean for that work and those jobs 5 or 10 years from now? Tell me you know 100% that not stepping us is better than stepping up? Tell me that not getting high level higher capacity machine is a dumb move and I will say I am wrong. America created a lot of the process and methods being used against it today. The manufacturing talents of this country are still top notch in my book, but there are still those that are equal if not greater like Germany, Switzerland, Japan, Great Britain, and others. Other countries are stepping up to the plate and we either adapt to doing it better and more productive or the manufacturing jobs leaving will just keep leaving. We have risked too much for too long with profits being the only thing and some people are seeing how that short sightedness hurt America for the last 40 years. Will it change I have no idea, but here there is a reward I outlined that produces what I consider a good return on the investment so where do you say let's risk being here 5 or 10 or 30 years from now?

[mkd]

i see pallet pools going on the auction block all the time. usually really old or really new. not in the middle years. this says allot.

 

http://www.machinery...ventoryid=33394

 

50%+ Haas machines are going overseas. we better watch out.....

[CADCAM3D5AXIS]

+10000 ^^^^^

That pretty much spells it out as to the thinking that goes on in a lot of the companies in this country. the bottom line verses profit in real time returns if they can not see the forest cuz the trees are in the way they need to go outside and get some fresh air. and maybe take there calculator with them and run some numbers in real time verses ROI over said time frames .

SPINDLE TIME IS SPINDLE TIME with people or with out them and parts shipped is part shipped .

[Machineguy]

Lets put this in perspective:

This is a private company. THis is our own product line. The outside vendors have been doing most of the machining for the parts that require it.

Its been talked about for some time about bringing in the outside work, and yes it will save $$$. The outside vendors keep raising prices and our engineers at times have to make changes to the product and that costs $$$ everytime.

The budget is what it is. It is a conservitive budget, but we grow 20000 sq ft every year. Can you say that to very many companys?

The 2 Haas mills will pay for themselves in 1 year. I cannot tell you what we are spending as that is company private. Look on the Haas website and load up 2 VF-5ss and maybe 1 DS30SSY.

You will see what I'm talking about. NOw on top of that we have to expand a room area to put all these machines in. $$

The budget also includes a money for a Laser Punch system. THats $,$$$,$$$ new.

 

Now a pallet pool , far as I know doen't work for vertical machines. Parts have to be hand loaded, and there are 2 clamp changes per side. Hyd clamps wont work in this application,as we have to screw down the parts on the inside, to keep them flat. parts are 40.00" x 14.00" x .750. 6061. Any defect on the outside surface and the part fails.

 

This is a fun place to work. No real people issues here. I get all the custom work, and low production work right now. The 2 machines I use were paid for in 6 months alone in cost savings. I now have night help to run the production, so I'm free to do as much prototype as possible.

 

I would like some real strong machines, But I get what I get, And I will make it work. And isn't that the bottom line??? Maybe later we'll move up, but for now...

 

Machineguy

[crazy^millman]

Machineguy each situation is unique and as each of us are in those we need to do what we can to make what we have work. I was throwing out my thoughts with the limited information given. The throwing out of Moneybags and them not listening to you was just me giving some food for thought. Not meant to be a slam or saying what you are doing is wrong, just a different way to look at how to go about the process. A pallet pool would allow you to set up maybe 4 to 40 pallets with the parts on 2 sides of the tombstone. So in reality someone could come in 1st thing in the morning while the machine is still running the day before parts and load up the pallets. You said 3 hour run time so 4 pallets X 2 Sides X 3 hour run time would be 24 hours of run time. If I wanted it to run over the weekend I could decide do I come in Saturday and load up the machine to run through Sunday and come back or do I make up 8 pallets so it could run for 48 hours lights out. Running them Vertically or Horizontally makes no difference in them coming out flat. If you are stuck on Vertical yes there are HAAS machines that do allow you to set up a pallet type system where they open the doors and shuttle the parts and everything so that would allow you the lights out where you do gain so much more run time. Again just throwing out ideas for you to help the people not listening to maybe listen.

 

Edited..................

 

MKD sorry, but is not much of an answer. That instance was a 2009 machine not 2012 listed, I would consider that a middle machine in age not a newer machine. Great looking machine and if I had a shop and needed a machine with that capability I do everything in my power to talk the owner into getting it. Most times I see a machine like this where people did not fully understand how to program 5 axis work or did not invest correctly in work holding and tooling to run these machine the correct way. Funny I see people all the time buy 5 axis machines in excess of $500k and then cheap out and not buy a good post. The cheap out more and by cheap holders and then want to do everything in a vice. Then blame the programmer or the operator for it not making money. 5 axis machines are money makers is run correctly and with the right work for them. I do not know the shop or the situation that brought this machine to market. I can tell you machine are selling and people are buying them. Do you play it safe or do you take a risk is really where this topic went? Sorry, but opinions were asked for and then comments were made where someone who has 38 years experience was ignored. Typical thing hire someone with all the experience then ignore it, but then might come back and blame the 38 year person when it does not go fully they way the owners "MoneyBags" envisioned without really knowing what to envision for outcome. I am not trying to be negative here at all, but when a spade is a spade why is it negative to say it is a spade?

Edited October 29, 2013 by Crazy^Millman

[RaiderX]

Millman, soo much of what you say is true. am on my 9th shop that do exactly that (cheap out and then blame the workers). 3 of those shops are out of business now and one is on the edge as we speak.

soo tired of job hopping to avoid the sinking ship.

 

you speak wisely

[Joe788]

 

Now a pallet pool , far as I know doen't work for vertical machines. Parts have to be hand loaded, and there are 2 clamp changes per side. Hyd clamps wont work in this application,as we have to screw down the parts on the inside, to keep them flat. parts are 40.00" x 14.00" x .750. 6061. Any defect on the outside surface and the part fails.

 

 

Yeah it would be hard to justify a horizontal on large flat parts like that, because you'd have to go to at least a 630mm machine to make the parts - and the clamp changes shoot everything all to xxxx anyways. In your case though, adding pallet changers to those VF-5s would be an investment that'd likely pay for itself in the first few weeks.

[Newbeeee™]

We used to have a midaco manual pallet changer on a leadwell vmc. Fun keeping up with it!

Not too big space requirement either. Great for the right kind of work.

[crazy^millman]

Yeah going to a 630mm means you could squeeze 2 parts per side on the pallet. That means 6 hours per side of the pallet per run. So in all all reality one machine could run parts for 24 hours with just 2 pallets. Man you could gain 24 hours a day of production without even going to pallet pool to start with on a 630mm machine. So in one year if you just stuck to 6 days of time which is 144 hours week verse 80 hours you would get 7200 hours worth of production out of one machine. 2 machines 16 hours a day 5 days a week which have to be loaded every 3 hours by hand would give you over 8000 hours of production having. One more expensive machine not give more production. Yes I can see it all clearly now where stepping up and going with one machine that is more expensive is not the wise choice. Sorry for the error in my thoughts and will go back to the corner.

 

But if you went with 2 more expensive machines and pallet pool what could the possibilities be? Without the Pallet Pool (2) 630MM machines could mean 14400 hours of production versus 8000 hours. That would mean in one year and extra $640k worth of production capabilities. in 5 years if we went by the standard ROI process that would be a difference of $3.2 million of possible extra production cpaablites verses what is being consider now. Again sorry I am so far out in left field to even think this or even talk this way.

[Joe788]

Yeah going to a 630mm means you could squeeze 2 parts per side on the pallet. That means 6 hours per side of the pallet per run. So in all all reality one machine could run parts for 24 hours with just 2 pallets. Man you could gain 24 hours a day of production without even going to pallet pool to start with on a 630mm machine.

 

 

Ohhhh I didn't catch the post where he said there's a three hour run time. I haven't seen the parts so I don't know exactly what kind of machining is required, but one good $400K 630mm horizontal running 8 parts per pallet will knock the socks off of two VF-5s. With a cycle that long, even the pallet changes for the clamp swaps are inconsequential, since it'll just be running parts on the other pallet while swapping clamps.

[Sticky]

Who makes a 630mm hmc for only 400k?!?

[crazy^millman]

Sticky when is the last time you have a machine priced? Might be surprised what all you can get nowadays. What would you consider a breaking point for having unmanned hours of production? What gives you more capacity and better control of the process? What allows you tons of freedom and multi axis positioning to handle more operations at one time? Sorry, but I will go with a more expensive more capable machine to allow me the ability to go after more type of work. HAAS machines are in tons of shops. People running parts the way talked about here is done in tons of shops. Do you decide you be like tons of shops fighting the same fight or do you decide to step up take the risk and really stand out? Questions were posed comments were made and I like ot think outside of the box and just want people to maybe see thing a little differently than they have or may not have been aware of is even possible.

 

I remember almost 15 years ago I was cutting 410SS with 1/2 Carbide endmills. I was buying them a $20 ea and it was 10 endmill per casting we were cutting. We were cutting the parts in about 3 hours each which was 10 times faster than the shop they had been outsourced too. The owner was upset about the cost of the tooling, but when I showed him 3 hours verse 30 hours he let me keep going that direction. I have always tried to stay on top of new technology and processes. I hated the amount tools, but we were still making good money. Tool Vendor came in and told me about these new endmills that we could use to cut that same Material dry. I laughed at him and told him we have tried 20 different types of end mills and tools and we were doing very good. He gave me a 3/4 coated endmill and said try this tool. I asked him how much did it cost he told me $70 ea. I shook my head and said nope we are not going to a more expensive tool. He assured me we could cut at least one part with this tool and would go from the $200 in tooling down to $70 in tooling per part. I was still not sure and then he said if it does not work you do not pay for the endmill. I was glad to prove him wrong and boy was he so wrong. It ended up cutting 3 parts per tool and cut the 3 hours down to 1-1/2 hours per part. Cut 410SS dry I would have never thought it possible. Simple lesson to not trust what I understood and be willing to eat some humble pie and let people who are suppose to be on top of these thing come in a teach me.

 

All of us cannot know everything and I learn things all the time. Thing is when we close ourselves to the possibility of better things how will the better things come along? Not saying a person here is closed minded please do not take it that way, but we all myself included and put blinders on and not realize we have done so. I have done my share of stupid things running companies. I have had to purchase new machines and yes I have purchased HAAS', Mazak's, Mori's, Hyundai's, SNK, Thermwood's and many other brands in the different places I have worked. I have had to make those tough decisions and some of those I would redo in a heartbeat since they were not the right decisions. Being a Boss is not easy and running companies is not for the faint of heart. We do the best we can making the best decisions we can and make what we got work. I did not have people to lean on to ask many times I had to trust my gut. I have only hoped to offer a different way to look at this issue facing this person. This problem is being faced by many others and if one person can make a better decision from what was posted in this thread then I am very glad to invoke the thought that allowed that. Again I would hope 10 different companies came in and looked it over and were given the ability to make a business case for what could be done not well these 2 machines are cheaper and can get the job done. Sorry, but that wisdom does not make me think that is really the best decision. Will it get the job done yes I am sure it will, but what could be the possibilities should also be explored in my humble opinion as well.

[Sticky]

Ron, I priced out 300mm and 400mm cells out last about 6 months ago.

 

People always like to brag about how cheap they can get something, but its rarely apples to apples, and in this case, these crazy deals people talk about never have any of the necessary ancillary equipment to make lights out actually work. Here is some copy and paste from a thread about this on PM:

 

What people miss on pricing out hmc's and cell systems are the things you actually need to run lights out. These options are expensive. Here are some rough estimates for first class Japanese hmc options:

 

Micro fine style chip conveyor, 20K

1k psi TSC with or with out temp control 10-20k

Coolant washdown and shower options 10-20k

Matrix style tool changer, usually close to $500 per tool, so 240 or 320 tool matrix is gonna cost 120-160k or more all by itself.

Part probing system and integration, 10k+

Tool breakage detection system, 10k+

Software upgrades like extended offsets, high speed machining, extra m codes etc can easily pass 30k

If you cut aluminum you might want to uprgrade to a 20k or 30k spindle, plan on adding 30-60k to your quote or more

Mist collection system 5-10k

Full 4th 20-40k

Linear scales 10-15k

Most cells seem to cost around 15-20k per pallet in the cell (actual pallet maybe more like $5k but I am talking cell size) so your 15 pallet cell would be around 225-300k

 

etc etc etc...

 

So that is $500,000-695,000 and you haven't bought the actual machine, tooling, tombstones, fixturing, or personal to run it.

 

Now of course this is a very well optioned cell, and some of the prices may be high or low depending on which builder you are choosing, believe it or not some builders prices are MUCH higher on some things I have thrown out here while some of their other options may be much lower. Also when you get all this stuff when you first buy the machine it is possible to negotiate large discounts.

 

 

I am familiar with what it takes to run lights out, I bought a 27 pallet 400mm Matsuura and have had to learn a lot of difficult lessons about running lights out. Its not so easy.

[crazy^millman]

Awesome so some good information being shared and important things to think about when looking into if thinking about going in this direction.

 

I am familiar with what it takes to run lights out, I bought a 27 pallet 400mm Matsuura and have had to learn a lot of difficult lessons about running lights out. Its not so easy.

 

Happy you have a pallet pool or unhappy you have one?

 

Has it help your business and the possibility to get more work or hurt that possibility?

 

With the lessons learned would you advise looking at a system or not looking at a system?