Hydraulic tool holding versus mechanical chuck

[RetiredVegabond]

Hi all,

I'm working with various tool holding suppliers and having difficulty understanding the options.

The Schunk rep is suggesting hydraulic tool holders with sleeves and claims this to be the least runout holder in the price range I can afford.

The Iscar rep is promoting various holders: spring collets, side screw and some mechanical pin roller lock.

 

My product requires the drilling of a large number small holes. For this operation minimal runout is important to maximize tool life and minimize breakage. Other operations include facing, contouring, pocketing and thread milling.

 

Can somebody please point me in the right direction for tool holding for these operations?

Thanks

[crazy^millman]

Thinking of your other posting about what CNC Machine to get here it my thoughts foir what they are not worth. Without some part or print to look at you really should trust what your budget will afford. You are talking about holders what machine did you pick out? Did you get through the spindle coolant? Did you get the correct amount of RPM's and Horsepower to really pushing the tooling you are going to be using? You talked about a HAAS I would go by a bunch of cheap Chinese made holders and cheap out all the way through the job. Sorry I know I keep sounding like I want you to fail, but it really the exact opposite. Was in a shop this week and after some years they are finally using their 1000 psi through the spindle coolant. Drills were feeding at .0008 per tooth feedrate for carbide in Aluminum. Running 80 parts I figured we knocked 60% off the run time with improvements. You keep putting the cart before the horse an in the other thread you have made you mind up to do what you can to get by. I understand, but no one goes to war without seeing what the cost of the battle will be. You have decided to fight this fight and then want to use the best holders on what? Get the best tooling you may not be able to use to it fullest potential? Sorry, but I am out in the shops and see all the things that drive me up a wall. Inefficient process, lost paper work, wrong blueprints for parts and stuff and you have the chance to go about this to really make it right and keep jumping around now back with a whole different topic about tool holder and which ones are best? Again trying my hardest to be a respectful in this response as possible, but seems like you are not prepared and how long do you have to get your act together, before your customer says lets see what China or somewhere else can make it for? I laid out a process in the other thread and if you presented this to the right OEM, the can specify everything you need ot put the machine on the floor, tool it up prove it out and turn it over to you which IMHO is what you should strongly consider. I offer this service, but not to be arrogant sounds like you could not afford me. I helped one of my customers land a $2 million contract and he just passed on a $30 Million contract I know we can have landed had he not got cold feet. Again very sorry as I reread this three times before posting and hate the way it reads, but I am not sorry because every word I speak is the truth.

 

I had an owner years ago get so mad at me for telling him no I would not do it the way he ordered me to do it. He came back later and wanted to know why I always told him no. I laughed and said I told him yes a lot of the times, but when I told him no that was what he hired me for. I was the Senior Programmer and he paid me very well I think the highest in the company. He paid me to do the best job possible for him and agreeing with him because he was the owner was not doing my best. I made programs and scrapped many parts for him, because he did not like my answer and wanted it his way no matter what. Objection was noted, recorded and then there when it failed. Sometimes he way got parts made. It was questionable, but 50/50 chance was good enough for him. Most times though I would be correct and he would just have to be mad at me and end up doing it like I suggested to being with. Point is I am not stupid and I started a shop from the group floor, I put everything in place, from the power to the air to tooling and suppliers and we made it work. It was not my money, but it was my responsibility to make it happen. I have run 6 people to 120 people shops and feel like I did a good job. I have seen so many different things and from that I make my recommendations and suggestions. Now again trying to be arrogant, but where do you want to be in 1 year from now? 2 years? 5 years with your company? Commend your effort to get information, but asking really all the wrong questions since you have not put the right structure in place again IMHO to get where you need to go. Get a HAAS they are great machines for the money. I have plenty of customers with those machines making good money. Go through your business case and I came back with solid recommendations. These holders are a drop in the bucket to everything else you should be looking at.

 

Okay sure I will get some not my money and how can I keep making negative comments, but I ask anyone of you where do you invest your money? Where do you invest your time? Talents? Can have 2000 parts a year from a long time customer if you do it the right way, and you are not sure what holder will help you get there? What about what machine and what options you got for the machine that you are thinking about putting these holders in?

 

Chucks are great, but I have pulled my share of endmills out. Weldon set screw holders are great I have broken my share of endmills and ripped them completely out of spindles. Yes you are correct least amount of runnout the better, but without the proper coolant and the correct rpms what does it matter? All different parts of the equation and this question, by itself would have got that answer, but there is more going on here and just putting out there some others things to consider.

[gcode]

Rego_Fix from Switzerland

As long as your tools have precision shanks the system works very well.

I just finished drilling 6000 4mm holes thru an 18"0 dia 316 SS tube with .900" thick walls

G81 straight through with no spot drill.

We changed the drill every 120 degrees and broke none.

I used to use an ER25 collet for this and broke drills on a regular basis

[Newbeeee™]

We have done testing (some) and Showa Micron Chucks (mech)are better than schunk (hyd) for the roughing work.

For semi and finishing, shunk is better.

[Brando]

if you decide to get milling chucks , ive used parlec and lyndex, make sure you find out how much is is to rebuild it, and if they will sell you the needle bearings and seals to rebuild it yourself, (parlec will and lyndex will not)

the frequency of rebuiding would depend on conditions, we have 1000psi thru spindle coolant and im always finding the grease is washed out and swarf craps up the needle bearings about every 6mo im taking them apart and cleaning, replacing the needle bearings and repacking the grease, i think is about $20-40 for the parlec rebuild kit depending on the size chuck, for the lyndex brand you have to send them the chuck and they quote you a rebuild price per holder, and also if the holder is not perfect even if its tenths out of tolerance they will not rebuild it an that pretty much forces you to buy a new holder

 

as far as hydraulic holders ive never used them but id make sure you find out if the ones your thinking about purchasing are rebuildable, ive read a few articles about some that are and some are not

 

ercollet and side lock holders will pretty much be maint free and will have a much longer service life

they do have special collets with very low runout, but the key is the same brand for the holder, nut and collet and also getting a torque wrench set so you know everything is properly tightened

imo haimer makes the best er systems but get the regofix torque wrench set

quality retention knobs will also help runout we use the jm machine brand high torque knobs they are the best imo

[M. Anderson]

We have done testing (some) and Showa Micron Chucks (mech)are better than schunk (hyd) for the roughing work.

For semi and finishing, shunk is better.

 

In my experience,

 

The Schunk Hyd. (Sino-T) are great for vertical work - drilling holes - reaming - etc...

Run-out is great even 5" out.

Not so much for heavy cutting with a side load - finishing work and such, they are fine.

 

For a much better side load capacity I use the Schunk - Sino-R holders (elastomer insert)

- but then with a dia.>60% cutter load and over .005 fpt - even they will deflect some...

 

I have some older Kennametal mechanical holders (roller pin), they are no better than the

Schunk Sino-R holders.

 

ER and set screw type holders - I try to avoid - but I DO still use them...

 

My .002

 

Mark

[M. Anderson]

...quality retention knobs will also help runout we use the jm machine brand high torque knobs they are the best imo

 

Used these for years... Cat's *$$ for ret. knobs...

[Mick]

We tooled up our Okuma MU500VA-II with Sandvik Coromant Corochuck 930's. Really nice chucks, and they have worked well for us so far.

[?Mark]

 

The Schunk rep is suggesting hydraulic tool holders with sleeves and claims this to be the least runout holder in the price range I can afford.

 

 

He is right. It's an awesome system. Very un-expensive holders but the press IS expensive. You'd need all carbide tooling though, and if there is a lot of drilling I'm not sure if you anticipated that.