Kitamura HX 800

[Tim Johnson]

We are looking at this machine for a large part in development (same part as the HAAS EC-1600YZT thread). Does anyone have experience with this machine?

[crazy^millman]

I worked with a 400 size years ago, and one of my customers has HX400 with 5 station pallet changer and love it. Strong we'll built machines insist on all the options you can get. 15 years from now that machine should still be running strong.

 

 

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[Joe788]

I don't have direct experience with that model, but to say it's in a different class of machine tool than an EC-1600 would be a bit of an understatement.

 

No question it's a huge, heavy, high quality, massively built, tank of a machine - my only concern would be Kitamura's relative inexperience with large horizontals. They've only been building those HX800,1000, and 1250 models for a few years. Building a big horizontal entails a lot more places to screw stuff up than building a big vertical (rotary table, pallet changer, etc) I wouldn't let that stop me from buying the Kitamura, but I'd definitely want to visit some other users of the same machine. A buddy of mine bought a 1200mm horizontal from a builder that hadn't built them before, and it was never sorted out.

 

In the price range you're talking about, you might want to check out the Makino a92 as well.

[Guest]

Don't forget the Matsuura H.Plus-800.

[Sticky]

Kitamura is nice heavy duty machining center, no where near comparable to that Haas, it is several classes higher. Joe brings up a good point though. If you have high MRR make sure the machine can actually handle it. Also squareness become a big deal on these machines with all that Y travel. Definitely visit some actual users and see how they like the service and support. Big machines cost big $$$ and downtime can sink you quick, make sure the MTB has you covered (and don't just take their word for it).

 

While you are looking at the Kitamura I''d also look at Matsuura, Makino and OKK. They all have heavy duty HMC's and some experience building them.

[MIL-TFP-41]

Don't forget the Matsuura H.Plus-800.

 

The 800 is the same as the 630 with a larger pallet, no? The 630 is a way fun machine. Wish Matts made a 1250 class machine......

[Sticky]

IIRC you get about 100mm extra Y on the Hplus800.

 

Still kicking myself for not grabbing an almost new Hplus800 a couple years back.

[Guest]

Wish Matts made a 1250 class machine......

That WOULD be cool. I wish that some of the equipment I saw when I was there would see the light of day. Maybe during testing it was not up to Mastuura's VERY high standards of excellence. Something Mori Seiki should take a cue from :cough: NMV :cough:

[Tim Johnson]

Thanks for the replies. Our biggest issue right now is that there is a 4400lb limit on each pallet. We're talking with Tombstone City about making a couple 44" wide x 52" tall X 10" minimum thick cast iron tombstones at 2500lbs max each. We are holding off our road trips until we get over this hurdle. There is one near Detroit and at least a couple in Chicagoland.

This machine has a 12000 rpm geared spindle. Should I need to be concerned about a geared spindle running max speed about 80% of it's life?

No question it's a huge, heavy, high quality, massively built, tank of a machine - my only concern would be Kitamura's relative inexperience with large horizontals. They've only been building those HX800,1000, and 1250 models for a few years. Building a big horizontal entails a lot more places to screw stuff up than building a big vertical (rotary table, pallet changer, etc) I wouldn't let that stop me from buying the Kitamura, but I'd definitely want to visit some other users of the same machine. A buddy of mine bought a 1200mm horizontal from a builder that hadn't built them before, and it was never sorted out.

 

In the price range you're talking about, you might want to check out the Makino a92 as well.

 

I'll pop that question at the salesman when he's not ready for it even though he should be getting used to it by now. As far as the price range, it will be very hard for any similar quality builder to be competitive.

[Tim Johnson]

BTW Joe, The Mitsubishi rep will be in next Tuesday or Wednesday to crunch some numbers with the AXD series cutters. Thanks for the advise!

[medaq]

- my only concern would be Kitamura's relative inexperience with large horizontals. They've only been building those HX800,1000, and 1250 models for a few years. Building a big horizontal entails a lot more places to screw stuff up than building a big vertical (rotary table, pallet changer, etc) I wouldn't let that stop me from buying the Kitamura,

 

Not sure of the exact name on the kitamura. But I ran a kitamura 800 series horiztonal machine nearly 20 years ago. The only problem could remember back then on it, was chip evacuation. We would have to stop the machine every hour or so, to sweep the chips into the conveyor spirals, when hogging out vacuum chambers.

[Matthew Hajicek - Singularity]

We've got a few Kits; an HX300, two HX400's and a newer HX500. The 500 is a Big-Plus CAT50, and has all kinds of power and rigidity. We also run it at 12000RPM for several hours at a time with no problems (knock on wood).

[mkd]

looks kinda weak

[DavidSV]

Kitamura makes some great machines. I ran several HX300iF's and we had 2 of the first 10 newer HX400G's. The only issues we ever had were the tool changers hanging up, and the electronics cabinets overheating when running them balls out. Sometimes when running heavy roughing we would leave the doors of the electrical cabinets open to solve those overheating problems. I would tell you to also get a Mori quoted, but then I'd be biased.

[Hintze]

my shop runs Kitamura HX300, two HX400, and one HX500. they are all great machines. the HX500 is a very solid machine.

[Matthew Hajicek - Singularity]

Hintze, you sure you're not in my shop? (looks over shoulder...)

[Sticky]

Are you guys still looking at the HX800 Tim?

[Tim Johnson]

Are you guys still looking at the HX800 Tim?

 

Yes, but we're also looking at Mazak Nexus 8800-II. We like the HX800 but the 8800-II has a 16000 rpm 50 horse spindle along with faster rapids/feeds so we have to check it out. We go on a road trip Wednesday to watch one run. We also have a meeting tomorrow with "Koji" from Kitamura. I don't know who he is or his position with the company.

[DavidSV]

Make sure to look at the actual spindle torque charts rather than the horsepower rating. The horsepower rating is the peak watts the motor pulls, and has nothing really to do with performance. The more efficient machines can be rated at less horsepower and have a lot better performance.

[Tim Johnson]

The HX800 has 30 ft lbs torque @12000 rpm. I asked for hard numbers on the Mazak for their 10000 and 16000 spindles. They sent me charts which were larger than the Brochure's but I asked again for hard numbers. I'm still waiting. Is the Mazak 50 horse spindle integral? I'm assuming it is.

[Tim Johnson]

I found the spindle type online. It is integral. Weird it's not in the brochure.

[Newbeeee™]

I'm probably out of touch...

Previous place we have Hitachi's with integrated spindles. We went through spindles which would only last 4 or 5 months, and sometimes a week after running in.

In a 2x year period, 2x machines went through 8 spindles by memory (15 years ago now...).

I put it down to crap design/cooling design, as there were 25kw of power only a few inches away from bearings.

Matsuura (at the time) had inline motor with a low co-efficient/heat transfer coupling - this by far was superior in my books.

Integral spindles were also H U G E cost to get re-built, because of the design.

Inline motor was undo the coupling and drop the spindle cartridge out.

Here we have 7 vmc's, 3x are inline and the others are (unfortunately) are belt drive. But none are integral as we won't have them.

I maybe wrong in my thinking as things may have changed but???

[GoetzInd]

Most high enf machines use integral now. We have a few that have em and it has not been an issue. Worries me less than a bunch of gears spinning at 10K. I am a fan of in-line though. Seem like that best of both worlds but would take up a tone of space on a larger machine.

 

Mike