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High speed machine tool suggestions and questions


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Hey guys, 

 

We are in the market for a high speed, 5axis CNC. I've attached some sample parts, the material is 6061, and range in wall thickness from .05" to .09" (1.25 to 2.25mm)  They are low volume from 1 to 12 parts with very short lead times. There are a few features with tight tolerances but nothing too crazy. Our main concern is the speed and quality of surface finishing. 

 

We've had a DMU40evo-linear quoted to see where pricing is at for a higher quality machine than our Haas lol. We'll be looking at Makino, Mazak and anything else that fits the bill and we can get in Australia. 

 

What are the cutting feedrates I could achieve on a machine of this caliber for surface finishing and 3d roughing? 

How beneficial is a pallet changer for this kind of work?

What controls have the best features for high speed machining and have post processors readily available?

What are some must have options? 

 

Thanks

 

why is my max upload limit 700K? I cant upload the samples now

 

 

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No "...what 5-Axis machine should I get?" conversation should occur without mentioning Matsuura.

 

Mori 5-Axis is a joke. We've displaced/replaced 4 NMV machines this year with Matsuura MAM72 series machines. There's at least a few more on the horizon while they redesign their "MAM killers" for the 3rd time. :rofl: You should not even be considering them.

 

Makino, they make a solid machine definitely worth considering.

 

Mazak.... meh. Not a fan of their controls personally. But they get good reviews from Mazak owners. If you're a FANUC shop, I'd avoid it like the plague, but that's just me.

 

Okuma, they make a solid machine and you can get a FANUC control on it.

 

Kitamura, they make a solid machine worth considering.

 

Yasda. Expensive as F**K and accurate to jig bore tolerances.

 

The Matsuura machine models to consider will depend on a few factors , work envelope you need and if you want a single or multi-pallet solution.

Matsuura MX-520 a single pallet 5-Axis. Reasonably priced Matsuura quality. FANUC 31i-B5 Control.

 

Matsuura MAM72-35V PC32, multi-pallet 5-Axis. (32 pallets)

 

Matsuura LX-160 - Linear Motor 5-Axis (several pallet configurations)

 

I recommend the following options;

1,000 Block Look-Ahead

Dataserver

Smooth TCP

NANO-Smoothing

NANO-Smoothing II

Jerk-Control

WSEC

Tilted Work Plane

Tool Posture Control

Custom MACRO B with expanded Variables

999 Tool Offsets

Expanded Work Offsets

Coordinate Rotation

AICC-II

3D Cutter Compensation

Optimum Torque Acc/Dec

CAMplete TruePath - NON Negotioable - This options should be mandatory IMHO with Matsuuras

Renishaw Probe

Renishaw Tool Measurement system

High Pressure (1,000 PSI minimum)

Chip Conveyor

 

 

That's about all I can think of at the moment.

 

One last thing, you ABSOLUTELY MUST consider support. Getting the most out of your investment is going to require high-end technical support. Not only knowledgeable in the operation of the machine but knowledgeable in ALL the FANUC options involved AND knowledgeable in programming techniques.  Programming Technique is independent from CAM System.

 

 

JM2CFWIW

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Makino would certainly have something that would suit your requirements. If you want all out speed, check out a Mikron. The Makino is fast, but the Mikron is "bat-xxxx crazy" fast. Roughing and finishing feedrates of 500 ipm is a walk in the park. Of course, I am referring to 3 axis toolpaths.

 

As far as controls go, when you get into a high-end machine, the controls are purpose built to handle lots of high-speed code. A Makino has 3 modes ( M-codes ) to control accuracy. Each one is suited to the type of toolpath you are running. M251 is for roughing and allows the machine to run roughly 30% faster than Standard mode which is M250. M252 is the ultra accuracy mode which is roughly 30% slower than standard mode. Keep in mind, the geometry dictates the increase/reduction in cycle times. Please note, all modes are very accurate.

 

Accuracy is handled a little differently on the Mikron with a Heidenhain control.

 

You may also want to check out a Matsuura.

 

 

Carmen

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Mikron had one of their machines making little football trophies at IMTS. The finish on the part was extremely impressive for any type of toolpath, but especially when you consider it was simultaneous 5X.

 

If you're going to buy a machine with a normal spindle speed, like 15,000ish RPM, you're probably going to top out around 250ipm for 3D finishing paths anyways, because of the chipload.

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Mazak....  If you're a FANUC shop, I'd avoid it like the plague, but that's just me.

 

LOL. I think being a Fanuc shop would be the number one reason to check out a Mazak control. :harhar:

 

 

Jokes aside, Mazak and Haas are the two most Fanuc compatible controls out there. All the codes and macros are virtually identical. Whereas Okuma, Siemens, and Heidi are a significant change in nearly everything.

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Thanks for the replies.

 

Some Crazyman showed me a MAM72 in Chicago and I loved it. The problem is we can't get matsuura in Australia and like you say, support is important. Another problem with our geographic location is there is a limited knowledge base.

 

I didn't expect to hear not so nice things about mori's lol but it's good to hear from the guys who actually run the machines.

So Foggy, those options you mentioned, will I find them on a Fanuc control or will it be a Siemens or Heidenhein? Or all of the above?

 

We have Mazaks but I'M not sure if thats the route we want to go for this next purchase, especially one where my neck will be on the line. The service and support at Mazak is lacking but we have these issues with everything, from mastercam down to our romer arms. Very small market with limited knowledge base.

 

Thanks Carmen, I'll dig into Mikron and look closer at a Makino. Mr Leg horn has scared me with the mori's now . I'll do some searches and ask you guys some more questions.

 

Oh, any ballpark prices on a Matsuusa or Makino that is similarly sized to the mori? The DMU40 evo linear with pallet changer was roughly 500K, in our neck of the woods.

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Too bad you can't get Matsuura there. You're missing out. Mikron... yeah, they make a machine worth considering as well, FO SHO!

 

 


1,000 Block Look-Ahead

Dataserver

Smooth TCP

NANO-Smoothing

NANO-Smoothing II

Jerk-Control

WSEC

Tilted Work Plane

Tool Posture Control

Custom MACRO B with expanded Variables

999 Tool Offsets

Expanded Work Offsets

Coordinate Rotation

AICC-II

3D Cutter Compensation

Optimum Torque Acc/Dec

 

Matsuura's comparable offerinig to that machine would be either the MX-520 or the MX-850. BOTH machines optioned as shown above are below the DMG price - in the US. I want to say the MX-850 is around $430k - ish fully loaded. I KNOW it's not anywhere near $500k for sure though.

 

Tell you what, buy the Matsuura, pay for my airfare, and I'll come down there on a vacation. :yes:

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I will tell you, the shop I am working for, we have a MAM-72, so far I am impressed with it. The new owners however have a high end mentality, they are looking almost strictly at Mikron.

 

 

They NEED to look at a new MAM72-35V. They are significantly faster. Like faster than Siemens faster. No joke. I couldn't believe it either.

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They NEED to look at a new MAM72-35V. They are significantly faster. Like faster than Siemens faster. No joke. I couldn't believe it either.

We've certainly had discussions, it HAS been brought up that the MAM we have is a few years old, so they are being given a chance as well, they're not out but these guys def came in with Mikron on the mind

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I will tell you, the shop I am working for, we have a MAM-72, so far I am impressed with it. The new owners however have a high end mentality, they are looking almost strictly at Mikron.

 

THey are looking at retiring ALL of the Haas in the main shop and adding nothing but Mikron in the satellite shop

 

What kind of parts are you guys making JP?

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Too bad you can't get Matsuura there. You're missing out. Mikron... yeah, they make a machine worth considering as well, FO SHO!

 

 

 

Matsuura's comparable offerinig to that machine would be either the MX-520 or the MX-850. BOTH machines optioned as shown above are below the DMG price - in the US. I want to say the MX-850 is around $430k - ish fully loaded. I KNOW it's not anywhere near $500k for sure though.

 

Tell you what, buy the Matsuura, pay for my airfare, and I'll come down there on a vacation. :yes:

If you want a working vacation no problem lol. I'm sure we are gonna need a good programmer once we get the new machine so I might have some roles to fill and I doubt I can do it with workers from Australia.

 

To Joe, if I can get a true 250 ipm with an accurate surface finish i'd be stoked. I can run our Haas at 200 ipm (5000mm/min) 3d finishing in aluminum but with accel/decal i'm not averaging that over the whole part and the finish leaves much to be desired.

 

I'm looking at Mikron's site but not sure if i'm in the right spot. Do you guys know a model number?

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Optical housings, lense assemblies and optical benches to be vague ;)

 

Interesting. I'm surprised they feel the Mikron is "higher end" in that type of work?  When I watch nice Euro machines like Mikron, Hermle, etc - I feel there's a German/Swiss engineer somewhere rolling his eyes at every tool change..."Ugh, you vant to change tuls, again? Shizer, let me stop the spindle and fold out this rube goldberg ಠ_ಠ  "

 

Very nice machines that are awesome at simultaneous 5x, and 3D milling - but they just seem like the engineers didn't intend them to run general production.

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Interesting. I'm surprised they feel the Mikron is "higher end" in that type of work?  When I watch nice Euro machines like Mikron, Hermle, etc - I feel there's a German/Swiss engineer somewhere rolling his eyes at every tool change..."Ugh, you vant to change tuls, again? Shizer, let me stop the spindle and fold out this rube goldberg ಠ_ಠ  "

 

Very nice machines that are awesome at simultaneous 5x, and 3D milling - but they just seem like the engineers didn't intend them to run general production.

and that's our niche' quick turn prototype.....

 

The main shop will do the actual production runs

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When I watch nice Euro machines like Mikron, Hermle, etc - I feel there's a German/Swiss engineer somewhere rolling his eyes at every tool change..."Ugh, you vant to change tuls, again? Shizer, let me stop the spindle and fold out this rube goldberg ಠ_ಠ  "

 

:rofl:

 

That's some FUNNY chit right there, I don't care who you are. :yes:

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 I feel there's a German/Swiss engineer somewhere rolling his eyes at every tool change..."Ugh, you vant to change tuls, again? Shizer, let me stop the spindle and fold out this rube goldberg ಠ_ಠ  "

Hhahaha I always thought the exact same thing. Like this mechanism will need to cycle about million times in the next 10 years, lets see how complicated we can make it.

 

Mike

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New MAM72-35V with all 5-Axes moving cutting a Turbine Blade.

 

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/g6tdi2vlo5vu1oy/MAM73-35V(N)%20Turbine%20Blade%20Finishing.mp4?dl=0

 

Coulda went faster too  if I had a better tool. Threw this together at the last minute with something I found at the bottom of the tool cabinet.

 

:coffee:

 

:smoke:

:whistle:

:yes:

That's so sick and you could go faster still, wow! What feedrate is that running at and was it programmed with Mastercam?

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For prototype work I'd die for a MX520 single table, with a Lang zero point setup with all different combinations of vices/fixtures etc I'd need.

That'd do me.

A large number of our customers use the Lang system. It's one of my two favorite common workholding systems. Raptor being the other. When I know I'm going to be doing some large tool machining (especially in the harder steels) I go with the Raptor. For most other stuff, I go with the Lang. Both are great.

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New MAM72-35V with all 5-Axes moving cutting a Turbine Blade.

 

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/g6tdi2vlo5vu1oy/MAM73-35V%28N%29%20Turbine%20Blade%20Finishing.mp4?dl=0

 

Coulda went faster too  if I had a better tool. Threw this together at the last minute with something I found at the bottom of the tool cabinet.

 

:coffee:

 

:smoke:

:whistle:

:yes:

 

Showoff !!! :harhar:

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I know there are a few Australian forum members running Okuma's and they might be able to get you an idea of the support you'll get locally because that is one of the most important things. (One of them even has a new MU-500 IIRC )

Take a look at the MU series machines for sure!

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