High speed machine tool suggestions and questions

[Guest]

That's so sick and you could go faster still, wow! What feedrate is that running at and was it programmed with Mastercam?

It was running a Mastercam Flow 5-Axis toolpath with some lead and lag. 20,000 RPM @ 120IPM. It's running TCP so the control is doing all the feed calcs. :

[Chipmakr]

We have 4 mikrons here: The one that sounds like a good fit for your parts would be the HSM400u, if the overall part size fits that envelope. Our 400u has an 18 pallet changer & 42,000rpm hsk40e spindle, max cutting federate of 1576ipm .The newer machines are the "LP" with linear drive components. None of our machines have that, so a newer LP machine would out perform the data I can give you about our machines.

 

 

"What are the cutting feedrates I could achieve on a machine of this caliber for surface finishing and 3d roughing? "

We are roughing 6061 using dynamic toolpaths at over 1000ipm on our 2006 model HSM400u. The new LP machines are even better.

We have finished on surfacing paths up to 900ipm with good results. It can probably do more that's just the ceiling I have hit with the parts I run.

 

"How beneficial is a pallet changer for this kind of work?"

GET IT. It might seem like its better suited for production but pallets changers really shine in low volume/prototype environments. You can switch jobs on demand and not loose the work you've put in. You can work during the day on new parts, if you hit a snag just load in a proven part & go solve your problem while the machine runs, but your not dead in the water & when  you do get the first part proven out you go home leaving the other 1-12 parts running out over night. TO BE MOST EFFECTIVE LIKE THIS STANDARDIZE YOUR PALLETS & WORKHIOLDING.  If you can prove out a job on one pallet know everything clears and then hit the button on the other 10 pallets its going to make life SOOOO much easier in these short run situations.

 

"What controls have the best features for high speed machining and have post processors readily available?"

Lots of great controls out there. I love the heidenhain TNC530. Easy to us & simple. The mikron package comes with CAMplete for posting & optimizing. Its bullet proof & easy to customize. CAMplete sets the standard in customer support IMO. The are super responsive & extremely technical.

 

"What are some must have options?" 

Upgrade the chip conveyor. Get as many stations in the tool changer as you can afford.

 

Not try to sound too biased here, but just trying to share my real world experience with you. There are many offerings to choose from. I liked the Roders machines I saw @ IMTS there speed & surface finish were phenomenal. Makino is very capable. I liked the matsura (I think it was maxia) I saw at imts. My only real world experience with any of these machines is with mikron though. And I believe from what little I know about your parts it fall right into there sweet spot. 

 

HTH

[Guest]

Who in their right mind would swap out an Okuma control for a Fanuc?  ewwww.

Somebody IN their right mind. :

[Guest]

...The mikron package comes with CAMplete for posting & optimizing. Its bullet proof & easy to customize. CAMplete sets the standard in customer support IMO. The are super responsive & extremely technical.

...

CAMplete... can't say enough good things about those guys. That software and that support is so good, I personally would not buy a machine that did not offer it. It makes 5-Axis programming as straightforward and trouble free as it can possibly be.

[MIL-TFP-41]

Who in their right mind would swap out an Okuma control for a Fanuc?  ewwww.

As much disdain as I have for Fanuc in general I will say that I am glad they finally caught up with Siemens for their processing speed. Only took them 10 years.

As much as I hate Fanuc I don't mind working on them. The tribal knowledge is available to do pretty much whatever you want with them.

 

Working on a Siemens or Okuma? The tribal knowledge is very fragmented. I can only imagine that the heidenhain is in the same boat, at least in my geographic area.

bottom of my list right now is Toshiba's Tosnuc controller. Can do lots of cool stuff....zero documentation. I am digging into their macro stuff right now and talk about lack of documentation.......

[Pitka_Guru]

Thanks for all the great responses. I'very finally found Mikron's site, I had no idea they were Angie ChaChamillionaire, I know of them from my wire cutting days.

 

Is the pricing of a Mikron close to that of a Makino or is it another step above them?

 

A few of you have mentioned Camplete which I have yet to look into. What does this package do? Does it run on the control or on a separate PC? I'm not at at home so the Internet is slow otherwise i'd take a closer look at Camplete.

 

Something I didn't mention was the part sizes. The largest parts we'd machine would be 20" x 10" x 6" (450-500mm x 250 x 150mm)

 

I'm going to read some more and then ask more questions, thanks for everyone's input so far.

[Redfire427]

Makino and Mikron are similarly priced for the same specs. We have both on the shop floor.

 

Carmen

[Guest]

CAMplete is a post Processor, machine simulation and collision detection software. You program your part in your CAM system, output an intermediate toolpath file (NCI, APT, CL, etc...). Save your part and workholding in separate STL files. Launch CAMplete, load your intermediate toolpath file, assign the machine, assign the NC Format (post processor), assign holders to the tools (for now - working on getting that to come across now - Hypermill and GibbSCAM already support this), click ok. WHile it reads in and processes your file you wait. Once that's done, open up the CAM Wizard, attach your work holding, and your part. Do any transforms and work offset adjustments you need to. CLose CAM Wizard. Wait for it to regen. Then you can run your simulation and or run collision detection or if you're confident, you can just save the NC file. It runs the simulation/collision detection on G-Code NOT intermediate toolpath files.

 

It's that easy.

[Pitka_Guru]

Makino and Mikron are similarly priced for the same specs. We have both on the shop floor.

 

Carmen

Carmen, do you have a favorite among the two and if so why? What type of work do you guys do, automotive? Aerospace? I'm from Bolton, ON but working in Australia now so i'm wondering what shop you work in with such nice equipment

[Pitka_Guru]

CAMplete is a post Processor, machine simulation and collision detection software. You program your part in your CAM system, output an intermediate toolpath file (NCI, APT, CL, etc...). Save your part and workholding in separate STL files. Launch CAMplete, load your intermediate toolpath file, assign the machine, assign the NC Format (post processor), assign holders to the tools (for now - working on getting that to come across now - Hypermill and GibbSCAM already support this), click ok. WHile it reads in and processes your file you wait. Once that's done, open up the CAM Wizard, attach your work holding, and your part. Do any transforms and work offset adjustments you need to. CLose CAM Wizard. Wait for it to regen. Then you can run your simulation and or run collision detection or if you're confident, you can just save the NC file. It runs the simulation/collision detection on G-Code NOT intermediate toolpath files.

 

It's that easy.

Wow, if that's included with a Mikron it definitely seems like it's good value for something so powerful. With Camplete, Vericut is not needed, is that right?

 

I assume Camplete comes with the post processor if you buy a Mikron? Does camplete add extra programming time versus just using Mastercam? I understand Mastercam's simulator doesn't simulate the G code so even if it does take longer, the verificaction is worth the time.

 

I'm glad I posted this because i'd never have considered Mikron. I'very already contacted Mikron in Australia to discuss our needs.

[Guest]

Wow, if that's included with a Mikron it definitely seems like it's good value for something so powerful. With Camplete, Vericut is not needed, is that right?

I assume Camplete comes with the post processor if you buy a Mikron? Does camplete add extra programming time versus just using Mastercam? I understand Mastercam's simulator doesn't simulate the G code so even if it does take longer, the verificaction is worth the time.

I'm glad I posted this because i'd never have considered Mikron. I'very already contacted Mikron in Australia to discuss our needs.

Yes, CAMplete comes withthe appropriate NC Format(s) (i.e. Post Procssor(s)) for your machine(s). Vericut is not needed unless you need some of the features that onlyl it has.

 

It does add a step to the process BUT, if you're programming a 5-Axis and you're not running collision checks/G-Code Simulation thatn youare a total fool gambling more $$$,$$$ that you can imagine. With CAMplete that step is a few minutes give or take.

 

Mastercam DOES NOT simulate G-Code.

[Pitka_Guru]

High speed 5 axis will be a big step for us in every aspect so service and support is going to be a huge deal. What type of support should be expected with a purchase of a machine of this caliber? 

 

This is uncharted ground for us as the samples I posted are the first mutliaxis parts that myself and the company have done using our Haas Trunnion. We will be needing lots of help programming and running a machine that is light years from a Haas in every aspect. Do the machine tool companies come on site for a few visits to teach all these advanced capabilities?

 

Very exciting times and I'm eager to learn it all, glad there is a place like this that can provide answers to all of my questions. 

[Mick]

I know there are a few Australian forum members running Okuma's and they might be able to get you an idea of the support you'll get locally because that is one of the most important things. (One of them even has a new MU-500 IIRC )

Take a look at the MU series machines for sure!

 

Mr M called me an Australian.... Shame on him. New Zealand is not Australia. If that's the case, all you 'mericans are from Canada LOL

 

One he is talking about with an Okuma MU500 VA-II is me. We put it in about 14 months ago, and I am happy to give you come feedback on it. It was a relatively seamless integration, and if you went down the Okuma route, I can give you tons of advice

 

Send me a personal message if you want

[Pitka_Guru]

Mr M called me an Australian.... Shame on him. New Zealand is not Australia. If that's the case, all you 'mericans are from Canada LOL

 

One he is talking about with an Okuma MU500 VA-II is me. We put it in about 14 months ago, and I am happy to give you come feedback on it. It was a relatively seamless integration, and if you went down the Okuma route, I can give you tons of advice

 

Send me a personal message if you want

LOL and PM sent mate. Thanks!

[Guest]

Aussie or Kiwi, all the same, they talk funny

[Mick]

Aussie or Kiwi, all the same, they talk funny

 

Y'all talk funny when I'm there

 

Haha, actually I was told so many times when I was in the USA "Love your accent"

[Newbeeee™]

Aussie or Kiwi, all the same, they talk funny

errrr, people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

[THEE THAINZ™]

newbee you throwin scones I love scones throw one my way. Oh wait you said stones never mind they don't taste very good at all.   

[Redfire427]

Carmen, do you have a favorite among the two and if so why? What type of work do you guys do, automotive? Aerospace? I'm from Bolton, ON but working in Australia now so i'm wondering what shop you work in with such nice equipment

First let me prejudice this response with the fact that we started out as a Makino customer and have owned about 10 Makino's of different capabilities over the last 12 years. Currently, we have an S56, V56, F5, F8 and two PS95's. The all have different capabilities and are awesome machines. My personal favourite is the S56, because it is almost 10 years old now, is just as accurate today as the day we got it, is bullet fast, and has never had one single issue. 

 

Mikron is new to us in the last 3 years. We started out with an HSM500 and purchased an HSM700 last summer. They are wicked fast machines, however, they are not capable of reliably holding "tenths" which makes up the bulk of our work. They are accurate for short term work, but fail on long run times due to the way that they handle spindle temperature. Mikron uses a technology called ITC which stands for Intelligent Thermal Compensation. In a nutshell, it uses algorithms to theoretically calculate spindle growth/shrinkage based on rpm and time. To cut to the chase.......... it SUCKS !!!!!  We have demonstrated this issue to our dealer and to the Mikron tech people that have visited our facility, and as of yet, they have not been able to address this problem. If they can sort it out, the Mikron will be a winner. The Makino's use real time temperature and adjust the chiller accordingly to try to maintain a constant spindle temperature. It is not perfect, but it is very good.

 

If I were spending my own money, it would be on the Makino's. Good machines, service, reliability, and they have a wide selection of machines to choose from. 

 

Yes, we have some very nice equipment. We specialize in high production, high precision, caps and closure moulds. Our clientele is global. We have developed some new technology for the molding industry which we will be displaying at the plastics show in Florida in March. We take on a lot of jobs that the "big guys" say are not possible, and find a way to succeed. Our engineering capabilities are very strong. Check out our company here.  http://www.capthinmolds.com

 

Carmen

[Mr. M]

Who says I was thinking of you, Mick?

[Mick]

Who says I was thinking of you, Mick?

 

I know you be thinkin' of me awl da' time.... LOL

[Pitka_Guru]

First let me prejudice this response with the fact that we started out as a Makino customer and have owned about 10 Makino's of different capabilities over the last 12 years. Currently, we have an S56, V56, F5, F8 and two PS95's. The all have different capabilities and are awesome machines. My personal favourite is the S56, because it is almost 10 years old now, is just as accurate today as the day we got it, is bullet fast, and has never had one single issue. 

 

Mikron is new to us in the last 3 years. We started out with an HSM500 and purchased an HSM700 last summer. They are wicked fast machines, however, they are not capable of reliably holding "tenths" which makes up the bulk of our work. They are accurate for short term work, but fail on long run times due to the way that they handle spindle temperature. Mikron uses a technology called ITC which stands for Intelligent Thermal Compensation. In a nutshell, it uses algorithms to theoretically calculate spindle growth/shrinkage based on rpm and time. To cut to the chase.......... it SUCKS !!!!!  We have demonstrated this issue to our dealer and to the Mikron tech people that have visited our facility, and as of yet, they have not been able to address this problem. If they can sort it out, the Mikron will be a winner. The Makino's use real time temperature and adjust the chiller accordingly to try to maintain a constant spindle temperature. It is not perfect, but it is very good.

 

If I were spending my own money, it would be on the Makino's. Good machines, service, reliability, and they have a wide selection of machines to choose from. 

 

Yes, we have some very nice equipment. We specialize in high production, high precision, caps and closure moulds. Our clientele is global. We have developed some new technology for the molding industry which we will be displaying at the plastics show in Florida in March. We take on a lot of jobs that the "big guys" say are not possible, and find a way to succeed. Our engineering capabilities are very strong. Check out our company here.  http://www.capthinmolds.com

 

Carmen

Thanks for your insight. I actually know of your company, a friend used to work for Zdenik before the two companies merged and i don't remember them having such nice gear.

 

Are you running Vericut or something else and is Mastream the only Cam system you use for programming?

 

Cheers

[Redfire427]

Thanks for your insight. I actually know of your company, a friend used to work for Zdenik before the two companies merged and i don't remember them having such nice gear.

 

Are you running Vericut or something else and is Mastream the only Cam system you use for programming?

 

Cheers

I came from the other side of the merger ( Prosin Molds ). We always had good equipment and we are slowly replacing the CNC machines that came from Zdenik's shop. Yes, Mastercam is the only CAM system we use.

[Pitka_Guru]

I have another question and hopefully it's not a stupid one.

 

I've been trying to do as much of our 5axis work with positioning and avoiding simultaneous because we have a Haas.  

 

With a high end machine do you work primarily in 5axis and only use positioning when needed? 

[crazy^millman]

I have another question and hopefully it's not a stupid one.

 

I've been trying to do as much of our 5axis work with positioning and avoiding simultaneous because we have a Haas.  

 

With a high end machine do you work primarily in 5axis and only use positioning when needed? 

 

Yes and no. Really depends on the part. No clear rule what ever gets the job done and makes the part the fastest and best way.