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High speed machine tool suggestions and questions


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"They are wicked fast machines, however, they are not capable of reliably holding "tenths" which makes up the bulk of our work. They are accurate for short term work, but fail on long run times due to the way that they handle spindle temperature. Mikron uses a technology called ITC which stands for Intelligent Thermal Compensation. In a nutshell, it

uses algorithms to theoretically calculate spindle growth/shrinkage based on rpm and time. To cut to the chase..........it SUCKS !!!!!  We have demonstrated this issue to our dealer and to the Mikron tech people that have visited our facility, and as of yet, they have not been able to address this problem."

 

The exact same conditions exist with our machines. The latest 5X Mikron is the worst. Our Datums drift as well. We have had the best service guys in from overseas, laser, ballbar test, autofind, and calibrate everything. 24 hours later, the datums are off location again. Its not just a spindle growth issue either. Every axis will lose position to one degree or another. 1 in 20 programs we send to the machine will cut egg shaped bosses, without cutter comp even being on, so software issues have been found as well. Put the part on the other Mikrons and it runs fine. We have to hold tenth's on 62+ rockwell parts and finding the sweet spot for deflection when setting tools is hard enough. Now add in the thermal instabillity and we have to back off on every part we run, gage it, adjust the tool and rerun it, hoping that the tool is still sharp enough to cut and hold size. I'm glad that someone else has spoke up about this. The reality here is that I can warm up our late model Haas and actually get more consitant results with it.

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MotorCityMinion,

I know we are not alone with our issues. We have done several 72 hour tests with Mikron techs to monitor spindle growth and datum shifts. They have tried everything under the sun to try to resolve the issue. Software updates, spindle replacement, etc. We have a temperature controlled shop, and even went to the extra expense of installing an isolated foundation for the machine, although Mikron said it was unnecessary. I'm not sure if you have ever dealt with Marcus Frei on your issues, but he quit Mikron last week due to the frustration of having to deal with Switzerland and they do nothing for the customer. What a huge blow to Mikron and their customers. He knew so much about their product. The biggest issue with the spindle is the fact that they don't use any temperature sensors in the spindle to monitor temperature. Steptec ( spindle manufacturer subsidiary Mikron company ) has told us that the spindle has a sensor, but Mikron refuses to use it. Bostamatic held all the patents on super accurate spindle temperature control, and when they went bust and GF ( Mikron ) acquired the assets, they took some of Bostamtics's technology and applied it to the new generation Mikron's, but decided to try to control the spindle growth via mathematics. Huge mistake in my books. On the new HSM700, we fought with the distributor and Mikron for one year to get it to work as advertised. We were able to modify our procedure to get closer to our tolerance goals, but it is a real headache. Your approach to hard milling is very similar to ours. This machine was a conditional purchase in that they addressed the issues with our HSM500. Unfortunately, they have failed and this machine has not performed as it should since new, which is now just past 3 years. I overheard a very heated conversation between the owner of our company and our distributor which lead me to believe that one or both of these machines could be on the trading block very soon. It is a shame, we love 99 out of 100 things about the Mikrons, but the volumetric accuracy is just not where we need it to be.

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We are stable the x&y axis, but in the z-axis, we have seen as much as .0025" It is very unpredictable, because the machine makes compensation in the background and you never know how much or when it will "adjust" itself.

 

WOW. I was expecting you to say it moved .0005" or something like that. .0025" is just ridiculous.

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We are stable the x&y axis, but in the z-axis, we have seen as much as .0025" It is very unpredictable, because the machine makes compensation in the background and you never know how much or when it will "adjust" itself.

Sounds very familiar. When we first got our MAM72-63V (this was early 2005...there were only like 7 or 8 of these in the country at the the time) I could touch off 50 tools.... The machine would grow something like .001 in Z just by running the tool touch off routine over that many tools. Matsuura camped out here for something like a month....different grease, different ballscrews, different everything....all having little to no effect on the accuracy of the machine. Then they put scales on all axis's and the problem disappeared. After that I understand that scales became standard equipment.

 

Since then the machine has been solid. Those first couple of months tho....I thought the machine was the biggest POS I had ever used. Our very old 760 was more accurate.

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Holy schnikes. That's unimaginable. Makes the whole machine damn near useless.

 

Holy moly. That is a lot more than I was expecting you to say.  We wouldn't even be able to make parts.

It is a challenge to say the least.

 

WOW. I was expecting you to say it moved .0005" or something like that. .0025" is just ridiculous.

Typically it is in the .0008 to .0015 range.

 

Holy schnikes. That's unimaginable. Makes the whole machine damn near useless.

As stated earlier, we have modified our procedure to try to make up for the machines short-comings. We have to constantly recalibrate the touch probe, and then re-measure the tools on the laser so that the machine is updated. This is the only approach that brings us even close to what we are trying to accomplish. It wastes a lot of time, but we had no other choice. The programmer/operator of our two Mikron's is stressed to the max.

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We are stable the x&y axis, but in the z-axis, we have seen as much as .0025" It is very unpredictable, because the machine makes compensation in the background and you never know how much or when it will "adjust" itself.

Out of interest - have you run a couple of test progs, one as standard and one with the thermal comp disabled?

And compared?

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Out of interest - have you run a couple of test progs, one as standard and one with the thermal comp disabled?

And compared?

Yes sir. We had a US Mikron tech up here for 3 weeks doing back to back to back 72-hour tests, with and without ITC. The results were comparable, both being out. The biggest issue is when all of a sudden, the machine figures it needs to make an adjustment. You don't see a shift of a tenth or two, but much larger amounts, and then shifts back minutes later. We called these "spikes" on the graph that Mikron printed out. It was sampling the machine every 20 seconds. By sampling, I mean we were touching off the tool on the laser and recording the tool length. The machine was just running in air. We started at the lowest rpm and increased the rpm by 500 every hour, until max rpm. ( 42,000 ).

We had the tech check to make sure there wasn't some kind of math conversion error in the control, where lets say, the machine was supposed to compensate one micron and instead compensates one tenth. They collected all the data and sent it back to Switzerland, but in keeping with their track record, there is no follow-up. Our problem is easily demonstrated within a matter of minutes, but of course we hear " None of our other customers have complained of issues like this", which we know is BS. We have taked to a few other local companies. What makes us different is that we need to hold tenths, whereas these other companies couldn't really care too much about tolerances, they just require the machining speed that the Mikron offers.

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Out of interest, is this pure spindle growth (cartridge) you're seeing then, opposed to Z ballscrew growth?

Once you know what is moving and you have a repeatable graph as you do, I would have thought they could have re-mapped the software to your machine???

I guess you've paid for it in full so there's no 'take the f'ing thing back or get it working' threat you can make :D

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Quick update. It turns out that Matsuura New Zealand now supports the Australian Market. So I stopped by the Matsuura and Mikron factory in Toronto yesterday to look at some of the equipment and ask questions.

 

I don't know why but I really like the Mam72-63 and I have yet to hear anyone say a bad thing about Matsuura.

 

Thanks

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"This is the only approach that brings us even close to what we are trying to accomplish. It wastes a lot of time, but we had no other choice. The programmer/operator of our two Mikron's is stressed to the max."

 

I share programming responsibilities with the owner of the company, as well as occasionally set-up and writing probing routine.  He knows first hand that operator error isn't the issue here. Stressed to the MAX is correct.  We buy the best tool holders and cutting tools we can get our hands on. Climate controlled facility. In house training by their applications engineers, yet we still have to cut 6 parts to sell 5 of them and no two parts are the same. 

 

"They collected all the data and sent it back to Switzerland, but in keeping with their track record, there is no follow-up. Our problem is easily demonstrated within a matter of minutes, but of course we hear " None of our other customers have complained of issues like this", which we know is BS."

 

No follow up is correct. Every time they send out a tech, we have to explain again the problems and procedures, show them the CAD/CAM data, then demonstrate it. The last time they were here, two techs were present. It took two full days to convince them to run the same part program on another machine to prove that the first machine cut egg shaped bosses and the second machine does not. They had to pull the same program from the bad machine and upload to the older one before they realized we were not talking BS. Mind you that we run these test on Graphite, which cuts like butter. These techs get flown in from over seas and the US and bring a lot of expensive gear with them. My guess is that they probably have over $50K worth of services call logged in this year. The machine has a 3 year bumper to bumper with it, so its their coin not ours, but the down time associated with all this malarkey can never be retrieved.

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Out of interest, is this pure spindle growth (cartridge) you're seeing then, opposed to Z ballscrew growth?

Once you know what is moving and you have a repeatable graph as you do, I would have thought they could have re-mapped the software to your machine???

I guess you've paid for it in full so there's no 'take the f'ing thing back or get it working' threat you can make :D

Good point newbeeee,

 

In our 72 hour test, the measurements were purely spindle. Why, because the z-axis was never really moving. Essentially, the tool ran in air for a set period of time. Then the tool was measured on the laser and the data point collected. The spindle then return to its original "air cutting position" and continue to run until the next measurement. So basicially, the z-axis ball screw was just used to position the tool for laser measurement. Also, keep in mind that Mikrons use glass scales for positioning. Our issue is 100% related to spindle growth, and Mikrons inability to compensate PROPERLY. The ITC tables are pure conjecture based on what they measured in a lab in Switzerland on the first machine. All future machines are "programmed" to compensate based on the original machines data.

 

We held the dealer accountable and would not make payment on the new Mikron for one year. Mikron worked on this issue "on and off" during that year and saw the same issues we did which were unexplainable. Once we modified our procedure ( read: a complete waste of machine and operators time ) we got results that were CLOSER to where we needed to be. In good faith, we paid for the machine, which in hind sight, may not have been the best business decision. Our dealer really is a good company, and we have enjoyed a 15 year+ relationship and have many, many different brands of their machines on our floor. However, I feel the dealers hands are tied on this one and nothing will happen until Mikron themselves address the issue. Until now, Mikron has just left our dealer hanging. This has been extremely frustration for all parties involved.

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Quick update. It turns out that Matsuura New Zealand now supports the Australian Market. So I stopped by the Matsuura and Mikron factory in Toronto yesterday to look at some of the equipment and ask questions.

 

I don't know why but I really like the Mam72-63 and I have yet to hear anyone say a bad thing about Matsuura.

 

Thanks

Matsuura's are about as solid as they come. When we did have issues they camped out at our place till they made it right. whether you can get the same kind of service would be my only question.

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Good point newbeeee,

 

In our 72 hour test, the measurements were purely spindle. Why, because the z-axis was never really moving. Essentially, the tool ran in air for a set period of time. Then the tool was measured on the laser and the data point collected. The spindle then return to its original "air cutting position" and continue to run until the next measurement. So basicially, the z-axis ball screw was just used to position the tool for laser measurement. Also, keep in mind that Mikrons use glass scales for positioning. Our issue is 100% related to spindle growth, and Mikrons inability to compensate PROPERLY. The ITC tables are pure conjecture based on what they measured in a lab in Switzerland on the first machine. All future machines are "programmed" to compensate based on the original machines data.

 

We held the dealer accountable and would not make payment on the new Mikron for one year. Mikron worked on this issue "on and off" during that year and saw the same issues we did which were unexplainable. Once we modified our procedure ( read: a complete waste of machine and operators time ) we got results that were CLOSER to where we needed to be. In good faith, we paid for the machine, which in hind sight, may not have been the best business decision. Our dealer really is a good company, and we have enjoyed a 15 year+ relationship and have many, many different brands of their machines on our floor. However, I feel the dealers hands are tied on this one and nothing will happen until Mikron themselves address the issue. Until now, Mikron has just left our dealer hanging. This has been extremely frustration for all parties involved.

That's a pity but I'd play-up like heck because of the down-time and the fact that the machine does not do what it was purchased/promised to do.

You could even argue that it is not fit for purpose.

Could your boss go the legal route?

post-16211-0-05881600-1419442169_thumb.jpg

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That's a pity but I'd play-up like heck because of the down-time and the fact that the machine does not do what it was purchased/promised to do.

You could even argue that it is not fit for purpose.

Could your boss go the legal route?

As a company, we have probably put 200 spindle hours on the machine in the last year. On the flip-side, Mikron has puts 100's and 100's of hours on it doing diagnosis and testing. We argued that Mikron will use up our entire spindle hour warranty just on testing.

 

The legal route.............. I would hate to think that it would come to that, but I wouldn't rule it out. As stated earlier, we do have a great relationship with our dealer. We have two lathes, two wire EDM's, 3 sinker EDM's, a hole popping EDM and perhaps some other equipment from them. We can complain to them about our issues and have them forward the information to the appropriate Mikron department, but if Mikron ignores the dealer, there is not much we, or the dealer, can do.

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