Robotic tool magazine

[Bob W.]

Anyone have any experience or knowledge of these?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sqTyvNRZdg

 

Both of my machines have 60 tool magazines that are not expandable and this will become an issue when we get into a cell system.  This looks promising as a third party solution.

[cincy k]

Really interesting concept. That looked like a DMG product so that may not integrate into other builders. 

 

I know Mazak does something very similar at their production facility in Florence, KY. The called it a tool hive I believe when I toured their facility. It served 3-4 horizontals in a FMS system. They stored their larger boring heads and such in it. Figured instead of having 3-4 boring heads, 1 per machine times how ever many types heads, they could store them centrally and reduce overall operating costs and tool maintenance headaches. Seems to make sense.

 

You may be able to partner with a local automation company and get the same thing accomplished. Using RFID would help in passing the tool data when that particular tool is put into the 60 tool magazine on the machine.

 

You get the idea.

TK 

[Bob W.]

Using RFID would help in passing the tool data when that particular tool is put into the 60 tool magazine on the machine.

 

You get the idea.

TK 

Yes, I have been investigating this very concept but I figured I'd have a look at what is out there.

[Sticky]

I'd be surprised to learn that system is more cost effective then the hmc's oem tool matrix.

[cincy k]

I'd be surprised to learn that system is more cost effective then the hmc's oem tool matrix.

It may be if you already have two HMCs with 60 tool magazines and want to integrate them into an FMS system. 

[GoetzInd]

http://www.mam-maschinen.com/

 

Take a look at these guys.

 

Also, will this be enough storage for you?

 

 

 

In all seriousness though I would just get another A51/61 w/ the 313 and keep your 2 a51's as stand alones when the time comes. A robotic solution would be at least 200k since a fanuc robot of that size is around 80K and then you would need to have it integrated and have racking built. Not to mention the prep times would be painfully slow for a production HMC and having your operators recover something like that might be unrealistic.

 

Mike

[Newbeeee™]

Bob - I'd look at something like this http://www.bertsche.com/portfolio-view/automatic-tool-changing-systems/

 

What design of toolchanger have you got? Is it a big ring or chain type?

Can this be expanded to be make bigger?

[Joe788]

 

In all seriousness though I would just get another A51/61 w/ the 313 and keep your 2 a51's as stand alones when the time comes.

 

^This. Implement a bitchin RFID system with your two standalones. Then when the time comes, get another machine with the biggest magazine. You could still put one or both of your 60 tool machines into the cell, and just run jobs that have low tool counts and high volume. Makino's cell control will easily let you run a pallet across multiple machines, so you could just use the 60 tool machines to do all of the milling on a part, and then head over to the 313 tool machine for all the oddball size drills/taps/reamers/form tools etc.

[BenK]

A robot setup like that would be more for a large scale production setup to allow for redundant tools. I would talk to Makino and see if you would be able to retrofit your machines with their largest tool matrix before I considered the robot setup. I would love to see that Fastems system in action though, I have always been fascinated by how things are made. 

[Bob W.]

The machines have the 60 tool ring type tool changer and they are not expandable.  I got to thinking about this the other day.  With a robotic arm and RFID and some creative macro work a system could be built where the robot loaded the tool in the magazine as needed and used RFID to scan all of the data in to the control.  I figured before I put a ton of time thinking about this I might as well look into what is out there.  I agree that the Fastems system is painfully slow and probably more expensive than a new 313 tool machine but I like the concept.  What I would be looking for is a system along the lines of what Newbee posted.

[Guest]

@ Bob, we bought a robotics automation company last year. We may be able to do something for you...

[Sticky]

It may be if you already have two HMCs with 60 tool magazines and want to integrate them into an FMS system. 

 

I highly doubt it. I can pretty much guarantee it wouldn't be if you have any significant value on your time, or if you account for any teething problems in integrating one of these systems. I think they are much better suited for applications where the machines CANNOT come with large magazines, or if the tools cannot fit in the magazine.

 

I'd buy another A51 with a big matrix for the high mix part of the cell, and use the other machine or two for the high volume, or long cycle time type of parts.

[GoetzInd]

 

 

What I would be looking for is a system along the lines of what Newbee posted.

Then look at these guys. Iv'e seen them at IMTS and it looks legit. Also, I beleive James said one that he has experience with them.

 

http://www.mam-maschinen.com/

 

[Newbeeee™]

Bob - if you go this way (eventually) - I'd get something watertight written into the PO ref PLC and 'issues'.

In my experience, the vast majority of problems happen when a machine is expanded - ie tool carousel, coolant system, pallet etc.

A 'basic' machine works and works where bolt-ons are problematical.

A mate worked a Chiron - top name bit of kit. Brand new but with a factory fitted larger tool carousel. This made some random changes for months after purchase and in the end the machine went back.

[Tyler Robotson]

http://www.mam-maschinen.com/

 

Take a look at these guys.

 

Also, will this be enough storage for you?

 

 

 

In all seriousness though I would just get another A51/61 w/ the 313 and keep your 2 a51's as stand alones when the time comes. A robotic solution would be at least 200k since a fanuc robot of that size is around 80K and then you would need to have it integrated and have racking built. Not to mention the prep times would be painfully slow for a production HMC and having your operators recover something like that might be unrealistic.

 

Mike

I concur with these numbers - integration is not cheap.

[Bob W.]

The next step in our shop will most likely be adding a pallet system and that is a major expense in itself.  Dropping another $500k+ on a machine with a larger magazine will not be an option and selling my current machines and replacing them with machines with larger magazines will be a tall order as well (dealing with selling, financing, rigging, etc...).  I think adding a third party tool magazine will be the easiest and most economical solution as long as the finished product works well and is bulletproof.  I really like this solution that was pointed out above.

 

http://www.mam-maschinen.com/

[Henk]

You can also have a look at:

 

http://www.cellro.com/English/Tooling/299/Default.aspx

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nl9ZSHc730E&feature=player_detailpage

 

 

[Joe788]

You can also have a look at:

 

http://www.cellro.com/English/Tooling/299/Default.aspx

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nl9ZSHc730E&feature=player_detailpage

 

^Now that looks like a legitimate, viable option. It's fast enough that you can just throw away the existing 60 tool magazine, instead of trying to hodge podge some crap together where you have a robot trying to load and unload the existing pots. If they can sell that fully integrated for $100,000 - they'll have more customers than they know what to do with.

 

I think you have a snowball's chance in hell of getting Makino and Fanuc to give the integrator access to everything they need to implement it, but you never know until you try.

[Newbeeee™]

^^^ very neat solution

[Joe788]

Bob, did you place an order yet?

[Josh Kinney -Elite Engineering]

I'm curious about this solution also.

 

-Josh

[Matthew Hajicek - Singularity]

Anyone can feel free to get me one of those for Christmas.

[Bob W.]

Bob, did you place an order yet?

No, but I do have calls in to Makino and RFQs out to the various companies.

[Sticky]

^Now that looks like a legitimate, viable option. It's fast enough that you can just throw away the existing 60 tool magazine, instead of trying to hodge podge some crap together where you have a robot trying to load and unload the existing pots. If they can sell that fully integrated for $100,000 - they'll have more customers than they know what to do with.

 

I think you have a snowball's chance in hell of getting Makino and Fanuc to give the integrator access to everything they need to implement it, but you never know until you try.

 

I doubt you could ACTUALLY have it integrated, and working flawlessly enough to run an unmanned fms for under $200k

 

I can see adding a magazine to special standalone machine. But for a FMS?

[Joe788]

I doubt you could ACTUALLY have it integrated, and working flawlessly enough to run an unmanned fms for under $200k

 

I can see adding a magazine to special standalone machine. But for a FMS?

 

Yeah I would guess the current pricing will be more like $200k. I was just saying if they could make it happen for $100k, they would sell a mountain of them. 

 

I don't see any reason why the integration couldn't be rock solid bulletproof, as long as Makino and Fanuc will share all their little secret handshakes. (Mori had to strong-arm Fanuc by putting Mitsubishi controls on machines, before Fanuc would give them the keys to all the stuff they wanted to access with their MAPPS front end.)