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Robotic tool magazine


Bob W.
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I doubt you could ACTUALLY have it integrated, and working flawlessly enough to run an unmanned fms for under $200k

 

I can see adding a magazine to special standalone machine. But for a FMS? :horse:

We'll see.  It might be more than $200k for one machine but the second should be considerably easier to integrate.  Right now I'm just exploring options.  I do like the OEM matrix system best from a reliability standpoint but it never hurts to explore other options and see what is out there.  One thing I like about these is some of the systems go to 500 tools and beyond and I am sure those are more than $200k but there is a ton of value there and Makino doesn't even offer that from what I know.

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^Now that looks like a legitimate, viable option. It's fast enough that you can just throw away the existing 60 tool magazine, instead of trying to hodge podge some crap together where you have a robot trying to load and unload the existing pots. If they can sell that fully integrated for $100,000 - they'll have more customers than they know what to do with.

 

I think you have a snowball's chance in hell of getting Makino and Fanuc to give the integrator access to everything they need to implement it, but you never know until you try.

 

That's definitely a better design but a robot can move at like, 6 feet / s if set to max speed so even the other options could still be viable

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The MAM-L40-532 tool matrix system with 532 tool capacity comes in at just under $200k after all is said and done.  VERY attractive if you ask me :-)  I'll post more info and results as I get them.

 

http://www.mam-maschinen.com/

 

That is not bad! Matsuura makes 520 magazines, not sure what they cost, but their 240 bases are under 100k so maybe you can get the 520 one for under 200k, and that would be a solid, integrated system.

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Yeah I would guess the current pricing will be more like $200k. I was just saying if they could make it happen for $100k, they would sell a mountain of them. 

 

I don't see any reason why the integration couldn't be rock solid bulletproof, as long as Makino and Fanuc will share all their little secret handshakes. (Mori had to strong-arm Fanuc by putting Mitsubishi controls on machines, before Fanuc would give them the keys to all the stuff they wanted to access with their MAPPS front end.)

 

I wonder if they actually would, or if OEM's would just stop sticking it to us on Matrix prices and get competitive. One can dream... :laughing:

 

You absolutely could make it bullet proof. But I am confident it would take longer then planned/cost more then budgeted.

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No you would have to buy the Matsuura then.

 

Being that a Fastems FMS is likely your best option at this point, and so is selling at least one of your 60 mag machines, it's not out of the question.

If the matrix system from MAM could be fully integrated and 99.99% reliable I think it could be a better system than Makino currently offers.  Makino maxes out at 320 tools I believe and the cost of that system is ~$200k (guess).  The MAM system starts at over 500 tools and is expandable to over 800.  The IFs above are BIG ifs, but I will spend a considerable amount of time vetting these solutions to make sure they will actually work.  Financially they are very viable however and well worth checking into.  Two machines in a cell system with up to 1600 tools available between them would be really bad@ss!

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If the matrix system from MAM could be fully integrated and 99.99% reliable I think it could be a better system than Makino currently offers.  Makino maxes out at 320 tools I believe and the cost of that system is ~$200k (guess).  The MAM system starts at over 500 tools and is expandable to over 800.  The IFs above are BIG ifs, but I will spend a considerable amount of time vetting these solutions to make sure they will actually work.  Financially they are very viable however and well worth checking into.  Two machines in a cell system with up to 1600 tools available between them would be really bad@ss!

 

How about we take a 90 degree turn - I bet you could snag this for less than those two magazines and an MMC are going to cost you. You'll need a new building though. :scooter:

 

http://www.machinerynetwork.com/buy/detail.cfm?inventoryid=33728

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How about we take a 90 degree turn - I bet you could snag this for less than those two magazines and an MMC are going to cost you. You'll need a new building though. :scooter:

 

http://www.machinerynetwork.com/buy/detail.cfm?inventoryid=33728

One of the pics says 'future high speed small part machining cell' !!!

That is one heck of an initial investment sat there.

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One of the pics says 'future high speed small part machining cell' !!!

That is one heck of an initial investment sat there.

 

Yeah it's an aerospace shop in socal. They have big bridge mills and whatnot.  They had an old Mori SH-50 FMS that they replaced with those Toyodas. It's a different ball game when 630mm horizontals are the "small part cell". LOL

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I'm just not intimidated by the tool magazine.  Really it is pretty simple.  The tool change arm remains unchanged, the magazine gets the tool into position, tells the machine it's there, and the tool change arm executes its cycle.  Everything is pretty much single axis and positions are verified by micro switches and/ or proximity detectors.  Motion is executed by solenoids or pneumatic cylinders and it can be broken down to very basic, discreet functions and motions.  It isn't brain surgery.

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How about we take a 90 degree turn - I bet you could snag this for less than those two magazines and an MMC are going to cost you. You'll need a new building though. :scooter:

 

http://www.machinerynetwork.com/buy/detail.cfm?inventoryid=33728

 

I wouldn't touch that with a 10' pole.  A system like that has the potential to generate some serious cash, so why are they selling it?  Are the maintenance costs and down time becoming significant to the point where it is costing enough in maintenance and lost revenue to justify a new replacement?  That would be my guess.  I wouldn't want to be the sucker that takes on that system complete with past crashes and the maintenance burden it would bring.  Notice the tool change door (dinged up)?  To me that is a red flag.  It has been run hard, if not abused.

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I'm sure you of all people can make it happen Bob. I just think you are making a ton of extra work for yourself.

 

Of all the bastardization I am willing to do to a machine tool, the magazine is pretty much the last thing I would screw with.

I wouldn't really be doing that much of this work.  I have a good friend that is an engineering contractor (mechanical engineer) and he is extremely talented and he lives for these sorts of projects.  We work very well together and our skill sets compliment each other very well.  One project we collaborated on was completely rebuilding and fitting and existing 6-axis CNC grinder with a new xxxxor (Faygor, LOL) control.  I made most of the parts and he fitted the control and wrote the entire ladder, from scratch without a software aid such as Proficy.  This was the first time he had ever dealt with a CNC and he nailed it.  He went on to create macro based parametric programs for grinding the line of tools his customer planned to make on this machine (end mills, ball mills, tapered end mills, etc...).  When all was said and done the customer was grinding ball mills down to .015" and the final tab was just under $80k complete IIRC.  That included the purchase price of the original grinder ($30k).

 

This endeavor is pretty much 99% contingent on Makino's willingness to support it.  I have emails and calls into the applications/ automation department and they are reviewing some of these systems.  This is all a ways off so all I am really doing in checking into feasibility, nothing more.  I see a number of challenges and if I can come up with solid, viable solutions to these I will go this direction.  If not I will come up with a different path.

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Several years ago Enshu and Toyoda both used MAM tool magazines. Enshu had it hooked up one year at IMTS, but they had to run the magazine at half speed because of limits on the size of anchor bolts that you can use. It still was crazy fast. Enshu went away from them and I couldn't get a reason why. Toyoda looks like they're still using them.

 

http://www.toyodausa.com/machines/automation-solutions/matrix-magazines/matrix-magazine

 

http://www.toyodausa.com/machines/automation-solutions/matrix-magazines/compact-matrix-magazine

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This endeavor is pretty much 99% contingent on Makino's willingness to support it. 

 

^This. I haven't ever looked real close at the Makino matrix magazine, but I know Mazak and Toyoda have an entire standalone control that runs the magazine. So all of the logic and servos running the matrix magazine are independent from the machine's control. If Makino's matrix magazine works the same way, then integrating a different brand of magazine (the Cellro unit in particular) should be a slam dunk, since they should already have a parameter setup that passes off the needed data.

 

control_zps5e14fa80.png

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I'm just not intimidated by the tool magazine.  Really it is pretty simple.  The tool change arm remains unchanged, the magazine gets the tool into position, tells the machine it's there, and the tool change arm executes its cycle.  Everything is pretty much single axis and positions are verified by micro switches and/ or proximity detectors.  Motion is executed by solenoids or pneumatic cylinders and it can be broken down to very basic, discreet functions and motions.  It isn't brain surgery.

Yes BUT you have to have a good PLC person to integrate it all.

Or you learn that as well...

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If Makino's matrix magazine works the same way

It does. It has all its own servo drives  and  control unit. It conects to the machine vie Ethernet cable. Tool data and recovery can be done via the machine control, or the small control unit in the back. Something I like about the Makino Matrix magazines that you don't see a lot is that they keep the tools in pots. Almost eliminates the chance of coolant drip buildup/ and chips causing issues on tools that have been sitting unused at the bottom of the magazine for a while. We've had issues with this in the past with other tool magazines.

 

Mike

 

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