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Machine Recommendation


Bill Henderson
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We have a LTA for some Nimonic 263 material approx 2"X 11" X 23" type frame. Currently running 3 AXIS and using two fixtures (MO and Clamp movements) on a CAT 50 HAAS. (don't laugh) Incredibly long cycle times and tooling costs per part.

 

Owner(s) have agreed to purchase a slightly used machine.

 

I want ceramics for slotting to improve cycle times (currently eating up 80% of cycle)

 

I want Horizontal multiple pallet for increased fixturing (more parts) and chip evacuation.

 

I want tool life cycle management, probing, rigid machine, and HP.

 

Given a low budget to work with 200K-400K

 

Would you go with a DOOSAN that is newer (2015) or a tried and true Toyoda (2008) or Makino (2008)?

 

I have never had much luck with Doosans running more that 75% of the time without some need for fixing.

 

The HAAS will not hold up cranking these parts out 2 shifts 9 hours a day 6 days a week.

 

What do you say?

 

Any experience with Doosan cutting Super Alloys?

 

Thanks. Any input greatly appreciated.

 

 

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I bounced this off my rep at Productivity; here's his response:

 

Hi Matt,

 

I don’t know if this pertains to him but this is a video showing how a customer went from running carbide to ceramic inserts and reduced the cycle time by 6 hours, running on a Haas 50 Taper VF6.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1K5QjR3hyU

 

And in regards to the Makino, that is our bread and butter production HMC, they run and run and run, having anywhere from 20-70% longer tool life than the competitors. Below is two links to some Makino webinars that relate to tool life and hard metal machining, also they have a huge library of webinars that pertain to every industry.

https://www.makino.com/resources/webinars/archive/Why-do-Makino-users-have-significantly-lower-perishable-tool-costs/348/

https://www.makino.com/resources/webinars/archive/Tool-Costs-vs-Productivity-in-Hard-Metals/351/

 

Just by watching a few Makino webinars you can see how much thought and engineering go into every little detail, all to give the customer the best product day after day. I can go on and on about why I would recommend a Makino HMC over any other on the market today.

 

As far as which Makino I would recommend is the a71, which is the smallest 50Taper Makino offers, a81nx is going to be the latest redesign 50taper Makino HMC with 50HP continuous, we had one at our last tool show and man that machine can remove material!

 

The Toyoda I cannot speak much of, I have heard they make good equipment in the same field as Makino’s. One thing I do know is that some Toyoda’s have a replaceable spindle taper that can be changed in under ½ hour, in case of damage to the taper, Pretty cool feature if you ask me.

 

Does this help?

 

If any specs are wanted let me know and I can try to dig them up.

 

Thanks Matt,

 

-Andy 

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Thanks guys. Yes I like and Prefer the Makino. We had a salesman in here very nice machine indeed the A81. I think our bean counter is still dizzy by the estimate.

 

Doosan?

 

I am looking for one reply on the doosan good or bad. Trying to tell our Program manager they aren't worth it.... but you know... he has done and seen everything.

 

On a small Inco part after I designed the fixture for HMC he said.... Use the HMC clamp here (the bottom) and use a center over the top and you can cut the whole part spinning it 360. "We used to do this all day long"

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A few years back I programmed for Okuma's and Doosan's side by side. 500mm machines, 50 taper. Both late model (I believe the Doosan was a 2011 and the Okuma was a 2012) Running the same speeds & feeds, the Doosan's would make a hell of a racket, chatter like crazy, ect compared to the Okuma's. Some I know have had good luck with Doosan's, I just wasn't impressed.

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We have 3 twin spindle DAAWOO/DOOSAN,S on the floor , they typically run 23 hrs a day 4 to 5 shifts a week , are they perfect "NO" but when compared to HAAS and such they are a way better machine . I have been setting them up and running them for close to 3 yrs now and they have been extremely efficient and productive working with 303/304 bar stock . Any issues we have had are age related between the 3 machine they have produced just 1.4 million parts , one of the machine is approaching 741,000 parts , they other is over 400K for parts and the newest machine is just over 300K in parts production . Most issues are little like limit switches , and valves and solenoid's having issues .

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"Bill - that material looks like a cutting tool graveyard!"

 

That it is! Had a meeting yesterday trying to explain to the bean counters why we are using so much tooling $$$.

Had that at the old place.

The owner who was also sales, said we were spending too much on cutters.

We told him to get some aluminium in the place!

:D

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Had that at the old place.

The owner who was also sales, said we were spending too much on cutters.

We told him to get some aluminium in the place!

:D

 You never have problems when you use the right tool for the right job ;) 

 

here i can order a 500$ tool without any justifications but its a PITA to get a simple pencil ...

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At the upper end of your price range 400K you are also in the ballpark for new machines from companies like OKK, Okuma and Mazak.  A notch down from Makino perhaps but still good machines.  We have 4  Mazak 6800's (50 taper) and 2 Mazak 4000's (40 taper) Horizontal machines at my workplace and they have all been very capable and reliable.  A Mazak 6800 fits  your description of what you need .  While the 4000's are probably to small.  One of these would be a good find new or used.

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we have an Okuma MCV-4020-50 and a Mazak VTC200-50 

both machines have the same specs on paper, same HP, same table seize and same CAT-50 spindle

 

the Okuma is more precise and rigid and have way more torque than the Mazak 

 

the Mazak can process complex 3D toolpath better than the Okuma

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