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Any advice welcome.

My customer has asked me to do a few trials so we can get backplot/verify in 2018 to match real world cycle times. We know we will not get it perfect, but close would be nice.

My first issue i just spotted, backplot says 2 hours 6 minutes. Yet verify comes up with 1 hour 54 minutes.

Simple question! WHY?

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Verify is usually closer than backplot for me.  I usually add 30% and come out close.  Small files, add less, large files add more.

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9 hours ago, MichaelH said:

Any advice welcome.

My customer has asked me to do a few trials so we can get backplot/verify in 2018 to match real world cycle times. We know we will not get it perfect, but close would be nice.

My first issue i just spotted, backplot says 2 hours 6 minutes. Yet verify comes up with 1 hour 54 minutes.

Simple question! WHY?

Let me get this correct. They want you to control how software is written and bend it to their will? How hard were you laughing when they asked you that? Seriously you are supposed to make the software do something you have no control over match? Wow better you than me.

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we post the code and run it through ncplot.

doing this allows you to setup your toolchange time and rapids and its very close for us (10%ish)

to get it spot on you need to know machine kinematics - acc/dec on the axes etc

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14 hours ago, newbeeee said:

we post the code and run it through ncplot.

doing this allows you to setup your toolchange time and rapids and its very close for us (10%ish)

to get it spot on you need to know machine kinematics - acc/dec on the axes etc

I do the same in Cimco edit as in ncplot, you then get near real time result if you tune toolchange an rapids as in ncplot.

I make a program, and run it at 100% on the machine, then compare the time on the machine verses the cimco simulation time and adjust it to same values, and for customer bid I would recommend adding time due to unforeseen happenings. I have 20% as standard normally. 

Then when programming new parts I know i am close to the real time the program run on the machine, i check this on a regular basis to see if it is changing, so far so close to the goal here.

To get a software program to take all considerations into the query is near impossible i feel, how about a peck cycle, where it adds more lenght to the operation, in simulation and verify i do not know if that is handled differently, anyway, cimco or ncplot or a program where you get the total lenght of your toolpath and operations will give you a more predictable value for your total cycle time.

Simple question asked, complex answered i feel.

Hope this helps at all, even if the simple question maybe is unanswered.

Geir

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Hell, if our customers knew our cycle times they wouldn't pay what we quoted!

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Hell, I have had new customers ask me, "Can you open this in Mastercam and give me a cycle time"

 

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2 minutes ago, jeff said:

Hell, if our customers knew our cycle times they wouldn't pay what we quoted!

LOL, but they have to pay for the added time to get another to do the job then.........

Anyway, you have to get into the equation also the cost of cleaning the machine, filling up coolant, tools needing maintenance, power bill, etc etc. If a customer only look at cycle times, maybe they should manufacture themselves...

I had a job once that we chased seconds on cycle times and got hours yearly from it, not of the customers need for less paying for the part, but for the sake of how many parts they needed per year, so i guess the reasons is many...

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Just now, JParis said:

Hell, I have had new customers ask me, "Can you open this in Mastercam and give me a cycle time"

 

Well, if the first post in this thread is right, I would gladly provide them the backplot time....

and the cost of non productive shop time of machine maintenance etc etc.

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4 minutes ago, geirsj said:

Well, if the first post in this thread is right, I would gladly provide them the backplot time....

and the cost of non productive shop time of machine maintenance etc etc.

Yeah but you have to program it first which I'm not doing unless I am getting paid ;)

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Just now, JParis said:

Yeah but you have to program it first which I'm not doing unless I am getting paid ;)

I took it like you had just to open the file they provided, sorry for mistaking that, I might have asked nicely if how much they think it would cost, shooting in blindness.

And maybe stated that it is not just  to run the part that costs, but the whole process.

Today, even in my vacation was i at work, a local customer asked me to help him with a part, and he had never seen a micrometer before!, he was with me when i measured the part, placed the stock in the machine, setup the zero point, made the program, run the part, adjusted and run it for the last finish, all in 1,5 hour i guess it took, when he left he was overwhelmed of the process to do so, from just stock to finish part for him, and he asked kindly that i added some more time for the inconvenience to break vacation for him, I guess not all customers are the same, but this service i provide him is of great value of the reputation, and now he can do his well drilling next week also. if i have had quoted this job for him at first i could not get him the right price at all, without having all data at first, i know maybe out of experience some of it and add the unproductive shop time to give an estimate.

other than that, i just have found more suitable sticky memos for estimates, I provided a picture of it, so i can give all of the data on one memo!, the green one from now on!.... :-)

IMG_20170727_174416.jpg

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Most of  machines built in the last 20 years or more are parameterized to use bell curve acc/de-acc. 

No verification software to date can deal with it. They can only handle simple acc/de-acc. I'm talking about higher end verification. Backplotters don't even know what acc is.

The only solution close in regards time and 100% in regards behavior is Vericut with the Sinumerik VNCK module. It only works for Sinumeriks though and it is very expensive, not required for things that are not extremely unique and complex. VNCK fetches data from ARC files, where all machine and servo parameters are stored. It deals with bell curve acc/de-acc, jerk, compressors, etc... 

When you have VNCK with Vericut, VNCK takes control of VERICUT and the last only play the stuff generated by VNCK. 

To the best of my knowledge only CGTech Vericut and Siemens Technomatix can offer this (Can be used inside NX too). I might be wrong of course. 

CGTech also uses VNCK when customers submit to them stuff only Sinumeriks can do and their software is unable to accomplish. This is how they can simulate Sinumerik stuff and code Vericut to reproduce it without VNCK. 

http://www.cgtech.com/wp-content/uploads/resources/flyers/VERICUT_VNCK.pdf

https://www.plm.automation.siemens.com/en_us/Images/14541_tcm1023-67384.pdf

Edited by Watcher
Added note about availability in NX CAM and links for whitepapers.
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Hi guys,

Thanks for all the comments, but just to clarify with an update.

Firstly customers pay me to supply a Mastercam file, which by definition they then own the program.

This includes set sheets and nc data already posted.

A strange setup as they are behind me on versions so unable to open my file.

Set sheets give cycle times which do not match real world machine times.

Problem is now solved to an acceptable level.

In backplot/verify  there is cut rapid and total

It is the total time customer required, by tweaking tool change time and carousel rotate time in machine def, the time now posts very close to true time.

My belief is new programs are based on new parts quoted by customer, which would have had a quote value. If mastercam says the cycle is way over quoted cost then either a rethink of program or its back to customer for price increase.

 

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