5 axis help using a trunnion

[Colin Gilchrist]

Inverse Time is the old method that has been around forever. For a Gantry style machine, the Tool Length must be known (accurately) before you start. This is so the Post can calculate the combined rotary and linear motion for each move. Inverse Time is used to tell the Control "how long" it should take to move to the currently commanded position, from the last position.

James touched on the benefits of TCPC, but the biggest one is being able to change your Tool Length Offset at the machine. The machine then does all the calculations to put the tip of your tool at the commanded position, at the commanded velocity. With Inverse Time Feed, you must repost new code whenever a Tool Length changes. 

[Greg Williams]

Jeff,

Now it makes sense, so the simulator runs the NCI code but the machine or course runs the NC code. If the simulator is correct and the machine not, then the post setup is the issue. For your setup and current machine options that is no TCP (G169) and no Fixture offset function (CallOO88) All operations will need to use the same WCS.

If you had TCP and and Fixture offset function life would be a lot easier.

 

In Mastercam that WCS needs to be at the intersection of the 2 rotary axis

 

[Guest]

I loathe being forced to be tied to center of rotation... If you HAVE to program that way because of software/post/simulation limitations, I'm sorry. There REALLY is a better way. 

[: Chip :]

27 minutes ago, Foghorn Leghorn said:

I loathe being forced to be tied to center of rotation... If you HAVE to program that way because of software/post/simulation limitations, I'm sorry. There REALLY is a better way. 

What's the better way

[Watcher]

33 minutes ago, : Chip : said:

What's the better way

Order TCPM from Okuma and set up a post that uses it. 

[: Chip :]

21 minutes ago, Watcher said:

Order TCPM from Okuma and set up a post that uses it. 

Buy a KTM/Husky-seiki

[Jeff2005]

On 8/5/2017 at 9:47 PM, Greg Williams said:

Jeff,

Now it makes sense, so the simulator runs the NCI code but the machine or course runs the NC code. If the simulator is correct and the machine not, then the post setup is the issue. For your setup and current machine options that is no TCP (G169) and no Fixture offset function (CallOO88) All operations will need to use the same WCS.

Greg,

This being said, how do I convey the correct information to our reseller/post developer?  I have been telling them the simulator and the program don't match. What valuable information am I missing.   Should they come to our company to better understand?  

On 8/5/2017 at 11:26 PM, Watcher said:

Order TCPM from Okuma and set up a post that uses it. 

I don't think this is an option at this point simply because we have ask for inverse timing option  

[mkd]

^^^^they are not mutually exclusive options. But i'm uncertain if Okuma will put the 'good stuff' on on stand-alone trunnion machine.

 

[crazy^millman]

27 minutes ago, Jeff2005 said:

Greg,

This being said, how do I convey the correct information to our reseller/post developer?  I have been telling them the simulator and the program don't match. What valuable information am I missing.   Should they come to our company to better understand?  

I don't think this is an option at this point simply because we have ask for inverse timing option  

Not sure they can ever match the machine exactly. Machine sim is not made for that in its current configration for Mastercam, but could be wrong. 

They should be able to add TCP. Like MKD said inverse and TCP are 2 different things and I have done both in a program before. Some of the older machines need help and inverse time can be the difference between on okay part and a perfect part on those older machines. The newer machines with all the bells and whistles it is so much easier to just program it like a 3 Axis Machine and let it do all the heavy lifting. The Fanuc guys will argue, but I think Siemens with TRAORI and CYCLE 800 do it much better than Fanuc with G43.4 and G68.2. Code is code and I am really digging all the different things I have been able to do with a Siemens that have normally been a fight on a Fanuc. Go the Fanuc website and dig up the manunals like you can on the Siemens. That speaks volumes in my book.  

[Watcher]

3 hours ago, Jeff2005 said:

I don't think this is an option at this point simply because we have ask for inverse timing option  

These options can co-exist. I don't know a single scenario where inverse time is superior than TCPM.

I think you bought your Okuma from a uninformed salesman. He should at least have offered TCPM to you and/or highlighted the differences. 

Unfortunately this is not an unusual situation. 

[Jeff2005]

You are correct, in saying our salesman was uninformed.  He has been very difficult to deal with to say the least.   I have reached out to several individuals who have been a great help.  These people have mainly came from the emastercam forum, and I am extremely grateful.  This is definitively a great resource of information, at our fingertips.

Those of you that have looked at my file I shared.  Would you know what I need to change, or will this fix need to come straight from the post developer?

 

thanks,

 

[Jim at Gentex]

On ‎8‎/‎5‎/‎2017 at 10:47 PM, Greg Williams said:

In Mastercam that WCS needs to be at the intersection of the 2 rotary axis

 

Jeff,

Yep...that's how I do it with a Haas VF5 and an older Fadal with the trunion table.

As Foggy said, you are basically tied to that rotation point at the intersection of the tilt and rotary axes and inverse time calculations.

I've just been lurking in this thread, but your problem still sounds like a WCS issue.  It seems as though something is off by 90 but I don't know exactly what it is either.

Is there room in your budget for a good NC verification program like Vericut or Predator?  Those run the NC code directly and don't rely on the NCI file.  Maybe someone here can run your NC file through theirs to see what it looks like?    

[mkd]

36 minutes ago, Jeff2005 said:

Those of you that have looked at my file I shared.  Would you know what I need to change, or will this fix need to come straight from the post developer?

 

thanks,

 

perhaps you could tell us which is the first operation giving you trouble.

[crazy^millman]

1 hour ago, Watcher said:

These options can co-exist. I don't know a single scenario where inverse time is superior than TCPM.

I think you bought your Okuma from a uninformed salesman. He should at least have offered TCPM to you and/or highlighted the differences. 

Unfortunately this is not an unusual situation. 

On older machines where the TCP was not fully matured and the machiens was never updated to never control software. Inverse time with the extact kinematics and Gauge lengths cut a better part that TCP was. On newer machine I agree, but I know companies still running 20 old equipment expecting it to compete with 2017 brand new equipment you do what ypu must to to make it work.

6 weeks for a part I think could be done in 80 hours. Didn't have spindle time because of the back log of work so the 6 weeks in that case won out. 

[Watcher]

2 hours ago, C^Millman said:

On older machines where the TCP was not fully matured and the machiens was never updated to never control software. Inverse time with the extact kinematics and Gauge lengths cut a better part that TCP was. On newer machine I agree, but I know companies still running 20 old equipment expecting it to compete with 2017 brand new equipment you do what ypu must to to make it work.

6 weeks for a part I think could be done in 80 hours. Didn't have spindle time because of the back log of work so the 6 weeks in that case won out. 

Always learn from you Ron. On the practical 5 axis milling is hard to follow you and Tom. 

[Watcher]

I think if one order a TCP Seiki option then it should be fine. 

[Greg Williams]

Jeff,

I don't have your file anymore can you upload it again? Also can you upload a picture of the table on the machine to see the configuration?

[Jeff2005]

Here is a ZIPTOGO and a Video.  hopefully you see how our trunnion is set up.

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ns07c90mmkknjgf/VID_20170802_132036831.mp4?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/kmiahtafo9lh3x0/%23401.Z2G?dl=0

 

MKD

"perhaps you could tell us which is the first operation giving you trouble."

The toolpath I am trying to get to run are the last 3.  

Thanks,

Edited August 8, 2017 by Jeff2005
Answering a question i didn't see earlier

[Greg Williams]

Jeff,

I guy down the road has an MB56 and the same table, his post outputs the attached code for the 3rd last operation

#401 FORM X9 PROG 5 AXIS 2 AM.MIN

[Jeff2005]

Thanks,

Does he run inverse time at all?  I noticed too, he is using High Cut Pro.  We turn this off in the program.  Also, I should be able to put this in the machine and test it, right?

Did he make any changes in the parameters?  

thanks I will look at it, at the machine.

[Jeff2005]

Ok i should have known this wouldn't work on our machine.  Some differences.  Our trunnion uses limits for "A" axis.  -110 & +30.  

 

thanks,

[Greg Williams]

Try this one,

 

 

 

#401 FORM X9 PROG 5 AXIS 2 AM_Gcode2.zip

#401 FORM X9 PROG 5 AXIS 2 AM_Gcode2.min

[Jeff2005]

You did get the Ziptogo that has our post in it?  I don't use M6 for tool change.  We use the G116 T?  I will apply our MD's here.

thanks for helping me.  I have also contacted the post developer, to let him check it out for any problems.

 

when I applied my MD and posted here. The code is totally different than what you sent me.  My question now is.  How do i check the general parameters to know they are correct?

Edited August 11, 2017 by Jeff2005
thought of another question

[Jeff2005]

Does anyone know how to properly set the machine general parameters?  

 

thanks,

[crazy^millman]

42 minutes ago, Jeff2005 said:

Does anyone know how to properly set the machine general parameters?  

 

thanks,

Yes I call my Machine Tool Supplier and get them out there.