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Okuma M560R-V mini(?) crash


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Hi Everyone,

I just had a mini crash on my GENOS M560R-V (the "european" version of M560V - no BIG PLUS spindle - regular BT-40). I went 20 mm to low in Z.... Was finishing the 2-nd OP on an aluminium 5083 (very soft) part. I had to chamfer a thru pocket and went in 20mm too deep in Z with a 12mm (~0.5") solid carbide chamfer-mill - 4 flute. The endmill survived the G0 Z plunge and went on cutting in -Y direction buried 20 mm in material. The side cut was about 0.4D since I wanted to chamfer a pocket. The problem is that it had no flutes on most of the height of the cut since it's a chamfer mill - has only flutes on the 45DEG part of the tool (6mm flute lenght: 12mm / 2). The cut lasted for about 70 mm in -Y distance when I finally hit the E-stop (this is a very different story that I am ashamed of talking about :cry: ) - in the same time the endmill gave up and broke of.  During this "cut" - or maybe should I say - forming - my part was displaced causing one of the 0.2" dowel pins that held it in proper position to break off of the fixture. Today a Service Guy came in, checked runout, machine geom - all seems fine. But the spindle rotation is not good - the sound is not clean - not good. He worries that it might be a spindle replacement issue... I was like - WHAT??????? Okay - I hit the baby a little - but what.. - it means I killed it...? Did not hit with the toolholder , dit not hit with the spindle - just hit the tool. Anyway - tomorrow he will come back and we will disassemble the lower portion of the spindle because the sound it gives is not proper - that's why I called Him in the first place. I am a little dicouraged - tomorrow I will know more. Will also let You know.

Anyway - what do You Guys think of this? Did anyone have similar crashes and afterward spindle issues? This machine was supposed to be a beast...! And I wounded it... with a 0.5" solid carbide tool in 5083 aluminium - this doesn't sound good... Maybe it was just completely bad luck and very unusual circumstances that all put together caused all this hassle... I dont know - will happily hear your thoughts.

This or that - my advice is : be careful with your machines - ANY "crash" - even with small solid endmills can be dangerous - you dont need to hit with any steel parts or toolholders to make a mess. Take care of Your CNC babies out there. :-) I hope there is still hope for me... :-)

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I had a similar issue on our M560V.  My "crash" was so small I don't even consider it a crash. I fed an 1/2" endmill down into solid 6061 alum at about 200ipm or so.

After that the spindle was making noise and it got HOT!  

There is a crush-ring that was out .00002". Entire spindle had to be replaced at our cost because they said we were using the wrong oil.

Oil that had zero effect on why the spindle was getting hot.

These machines are beasts, but they don't like the slightest impact in the Z axis at all apparently.

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Just now, mkd said:

Haas>Okuma

LOL

In the 7 years I have worked for an Okuma distributor We have only replaced a few M560 spindles. On the other hand, Haas spindles go out so often they keep multiple of them in stock.

17 hours ago, JParis said:

Ceramic bearings?   Maybe....

Yes, ceramic bearings in the 15k rpm spindle. Steel bearings would handle a crash better but the reduced spindle life would mean that everyone would get to replace their spindles more often.

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44 minutes ago, mkd said:

Haas>Okuma

Troll !!!

 

Iv'e got an old/ugly 50 taper Mori that goes to 15k. I'd assume they are also guaranteed to be ceramic bearings. :headscratch:

Wonder how that and the torque rating will work out for roughing Titanum in quantity. 2.0" insert@ 300rpm= spindle stall?

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On ‎9‎/‎14‎/‎2017 at 9:22 AM, jeff said:

I had a similar issue on our M560V.  My "crash" was so small I don't even consider it a crash. I fed an 1/2" endmill down into solid 6061 alum at about 200ipm or so.

After that the spindle was making noise and it got HOT!  

There is a crush-ring that was out .00002". Entire spindle had to be replaced at our cost because they said we were using the wrong oil.

Oil that had zero effect on why the spindle was getting hot.

These machines are beasts, but they don't like the slightest impact in the Z axis at all apparently.

 Our  m560 v   was slightly  crushed  few times  so far don't see any issue . 15000 rpm  btw

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On ‎9‎/‎14‎/‎2017 at 9:22 AM, jeff said:

I had a similar issue on our M560V.  My "crash" was so small I don't even consider it a crash. I fed an 1/2" endmill down into solid 6061 alum at about 200ipm or so.

After that the spindle was making noise and it got HOT!  

There is a crush-ring that was out .00002". Entire spindle had to be replaced at our cost because they said we were using the wrong oil.

Oil that had zero effect on why the spindle was getting hot.

These machines are beasts, but they don't like the slightest impact in the Z axis at all apparently.

I  guess this means no broaching then ??? 

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That is a good lesson. Machines are getting a little wimpier...

 We had ceramic bearings on a bunch of older Matsuras and never had issues like that. And those machines WERE ABUSED.

If anything, I'd expect an overload alarm, but not a bad spindle after feeding this tool hard like that ( I'm assuming you didn't rapid into the material?)

 

Oh, Dzien dobry! :D

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4 hours ago, Mark @ PPG said:

That is a good lesson. Machines are getting a little wimpier...

 We had ceramic bearings on a bunch of older Matsuras and never had issues like that. And those machines WERE ABUSED.

If anything, I'd expect an overload alarm, but not a bad spindle after feeding this tool hard like that ( I'm assuming you didn't rapid into the material?)

 

Oh, Dzien dobry! :D

I was reading this thinking what you just wrote - Matsuura UK (who re-build the European Mats spindles) used to say that the ceramics were more robust and would take a hit better than steel balls...

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Quote

That is a good lesson. Machines are getting a little wimpier...

 We had ceramic bearings on a bunch of older Matsuras and never had issues like that. And those machines WERE ABUSED.

If anything, I'd expect an overload alarm, but not a bad spindle after feeding this tool hard like that ( I'm assuming you didn't rapid into the material?)

 

Oh, Dzien dobry! :D

Dzien Dobry! :)

Well - I did rapid into material with an ae=1.5mm only (wanted to chamfer an existing pocket - it was OP 2 - the pocket was already cut in OP 1). That's nothing - I did not touch any holder or spindle housing or anything that's solid. The tool stopped rapiding before the fixture surface and then went down 1.5 mm into the fixture surface with G1 f=2500 mm/min. After that it went into a side cut without flutes  with G1 f=2500 mm/min or 100 IPM. To me - this propably was the most problematic. But if the tool survived all this abuse - why the hell did the spindle give up....???? And if that was too much for the spindle or axis - why didn't the machine stop due to too much overload? The stickout of the tool was 37mm being just over 3xD.

The thing that happened to my spindle is that a brass ring that was glued in or tight-fitted into a steel cover got loose and went in contact with the spindle shaft. This caused it to heat up and make bad noises. These parts are non-rating parts in the lower portion of the spindle. They are part of the air-seal along with the labyrynth that is a rotaing part (tight fitted onto the spindle shaft). Anyway the Guy took this ring out and assembled the spindle without it (with OKUMA's permission of course) - just to test it. It was OK -  the temperature was OK and the sound of the spindle was also OK. I was quite happy that I didn't have to pay $30k for a spindle replacement :huh: What pissed me of after that is when I received a price and time offer for this part to be replaced : 1200 EUROS and.... You all better sit cause you'll fall : 2 to 3 weeks delivery time!!!!!!!!! Now that's the part that I suppose can go into the Guiness Book of World Records - into the chapter titled : "We dont give a xxxx about any Customer once he bought our machine". I'm out of words... hard to comment....

Well anyway - I'll tell You all what the service People tell me:

1) The machine did not stop because if it did the overload level would be too low to allow for "normal" operation during more aggresive cutting. I ask Him : well if the spindle cant handle this then the overload maybe should be set to a lower level, preventing the machine from self-destructing. He said that the machine cant think by itself - the operator must do that. OK - he's right. I know that there is no cure for a Guy who rapids 100% and sweeps everything from the table and at the end must run away in order not to get hit by the whole thing falling apart. There is no prevention from a RAPID hard hit - even if the machine stops - it's already destructed - that's common sense and you dont need to be aqualified OKUMA serviceman to figure that out. But in my case - the machine did not rapid but was fed into material with a reasonable feedrate and did not stop by itself - and this IS NOT NORMAL TO ME - unless the thrust on the axes were not exceeded. In that case - the spindle should also be that tough to to handle such torque on it's cutting end - that is a result of this axis thrust. If not then something IS WRONG. At leaset that's what I think and am pretty sure I'm right.

2) I will propably loose my warranty for the spindle - I barely made 800 hrs out of it - so - there goes the 20000 hrs for which the spindle is rated for... Just because of this stupid mishap. Anyway - I still an fighting with them and dont want to give in. This is crazy - I'm still not believing it's OKUMA... That's like nothing I ever heard about this brand... Unbelievable.

Sorry Everyone for such a long post - just wanted to tell You all I know. Thanks and take care. I wish You all not to have such happenings - or mishappenings :-) Take care.

Do zobaczenia (See You later)!

 

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On ‎14‎-‎09‎-‎2017 at 6:22 PM, jeff said:

I had a similar issue on our M560V.  My "crash" was so small I don't even consider it a crash. I fed an 1/2" endmill down into solid 6061 alum at about 200ipm or so.

After that the spindle was making noise and it got HOT!  

There is a crush-ring that was out .00002". Entire spindle had to be replaced at our cost because they said we were using the wrong oil.

Oil that had zero effect on why the spindle was getting hot.

These machines are beasts, but they don't like the slightest impact in the Z axis at all apparently.

Hi Jeff,

What do You mean that the crush ring was out 0.00002"? maybe 0.0002 or 0.002 ? Do you mean the same ring I was talking about - the brass thing the is tight fitted into the cover in the bootom portion of the spindle?

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17 hours ago, Maclaw said:

Hi Jeff,

What do You mean that the crush ring was out 0.00002"? maybe 0.0002 or 0.002 ? Do you mean the same ring I was talking about - the brass thing the is tight fitted into the cover in the bootom portion of the spindle?

It was a few microns out of spec, according to the service guys. 

I maintain to this day that I did not crash that machine. I have no problem admitting when I do crash, but this was such a minor incident I can't believe they had to replace the spindle because of that. $30k bill, and I believe they paid half of it. They also said that we used the wrong spindle oil, so make sure you use EXACTLY the oils and greases that they tell you to.

FYI the grease for the ball screws is about $150 a tube.

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