Must Have HMC Options

[g huns]

We recently purchased two Enshu GE590 HMCs. These machines were basically demos. Both under 100 hours. One machine has Enshus mold/die package. That's just Fanuc's high speed contouring and data server. The other doesn't. Enshu is going to have Fanuc add it to the second machine.

While they are here, are there any "must have" options for a Fanuc 31i-MA that I should have?

I am very out of the loop when it comes to "modern" Fanuc controls. Even this one feels like a Model T compared to the Heidenhains, Roeders, and Okuma controls we deal with.

I think I really need G68/G68.2.

What I want to do is program any part, 3+1 or full 4X, without concern as to placement of the part within the machine, or which of the two it's cut on. Just throw a part in a vise, or on a tombstone, probe it, and run a program that was posted without any knowledge of machine COR in relation to work offset. 

I think G68.2 can do that. But do I need anything additional to make it happen?

Enshu is honestly somewhat clueless about this. Their customer base is mostly production shops, using a lot of dedicated fixtures where something like this isn't as big of a deal. But in a mold shop, where parts change constantly, I need an easy button.

[?Mark]

Random order...I'd also add a higher level look ahead if possible in addition to the data server. High pressure coolant thru is a must imo too.

Also, make sure the 4th is SYNCHED! I've seen them (hmc) come in out of whack by a huge margin. Having Fanuc come in later to synchronize the 4th is very expensive.

[g huns]

7 minutes ago, Mark @ PPG said:

Random order...I'd also add a higher level look ahead if possible in addition to the data server. High pressure coolant thru is a must imo too.

Also, make sure the 4th is SYNCHED! I've seen them (hmc) come in out of whack by a huge margin. Having Fanuc come in later to synchronize the 4th is very expensive.

Yeah, I'd NEVER buy another machine without HP coolant through.

How does one check to see if their 4th is in sync?

[?Mark]

Poor man's way is to clamp a ring (make sure it's round  ) either in vises or on top of the tombstone. Indicate a center as close as possible and write a little 4th axis simultanous program to drive an indicator around this ring. 180 deg sweep is plenty.

 

You'd be surprised how many HMC machines are waaay off.

[huskermcdoogle]

I'm not sure I follow the whole syncing thing.  How to you indicated it, and then show it being off with rotation?  What is off?

Anyway, must have options.  What exactly does Enshu supply with the mold die package?

I have a similar dilemma on my end, they didn't ship one of our Robodrills with the right options, so eventually they need to send someone, in the mean time I have held them up for the upgrade as the machine doesn't have any work at the moment.  But I would like to look into upgrading a few options on our Routers which are six axis and usually moving at feeds of 300 - 600 IPM.  Being H/H or H/T that means any time you are out of plane the programs are point to point.  It can get pretty jerky at times, and IMHO the factory AICC II settings certainly aren't well tuned.

Things that I have been meaning to call Fanuc to discuss for upgrade on our Routers:

AI Contour Control II  - 40 vs 200 vs 1000 block lookahead, what do I truly need, I think I have 200 and believe I outrun it regularly.  How big are minute point point moves?

      -MAKE SURE YOU GET A GOOD PARAMETER SET TO START WITH FOR TUNING!!!!!!!

Jerk Control - I have it but it was never defined - how much to "tune it"?

Nano-smoothing 2 (G5.1 Q3)- I do a fair amount of high speed 4ax simulaneous, smooth motion is sometimes impossible given input geo quality (scans), How much will it help

Smooth TCP / HIgh Speed Smooth TCP (you likely won't need this) - but I wonder how much it will help smooth out choppy vectors resulting in better quality and faster run times?

 

I am thinking you will want to look at the following:

Tilted Working Plane - (G68.2) - I have no experience with using this to compensate for center of rotation error, someone else will have to chime in on the kinematic aspect of it.  But supposedly it does.  If that is the case that might be all you need.

If not, look into these functions:

Rotary Table Dynamic Fixture (G54.2) (all you would need for indexing, not sure if it will do anything for simultaneous)

WSEC - Work Setting Error Compensation (G54.4) - This I have read is the fully featured version of the above, and works well with TCP

 

Good luck

[?Mark]

17 minutes ago, huskermcdoogle said:

I'm not sure I follow the whole syncing thing.  How to you indicated it, and then show it being off with rotation?  What is off?

Indicate the c/l of the ring, and place it accordingly in relation to the c/r of the tombstone in Mastercam.  Running depth indicator using continuous X Z B move will tell you if those axis are synced (indicator should be nice and steady while XZB is moving). Checking every few degrees (positioning only) might falsely give you good results.

If you have to ask then likely you don't need it, but it's a must check for any simultaneous 4 axis machining.

 

[Leon82]

We use 68.2 for our 5axis and can set zero of a part anywhere but the kinematic parameters in the control have to be correct to get a tight tolerance

[huskermcdoogle]

18 minutes ago, Mark @ PPG said:

ndicate the c/l of the ring, and place it accordingly in relation to the c/r of the tombstone in Mastercam.  Running depth indicator using continuous X Z B move will tell you if those axis are synced (indicator should be nice and steady while XZB is moving). Checking every few degrees (positioning only) might falsely give you good results.

If you have to ask then likely you don't need it, but it's a must check for any simultaneous 4 axis machining.

So this is more of a electrical syncing, basically speeds and accelerations of servo loop type thing than a mechanical kinematic offset thing?

[?Mark]

Exactly. Acceleration/deceleration (and some backlash) is the main thing. When you adjust the feed as it does the move things get really out of whack if it's not synced. I've seen an error of .050" on otherwise "perfectly fine" HMC equipment

[g huns]

On 1/19/2018 at 5:09 PM, huskermcdoogle said:

Things that I have been meaning to call Fanuc to discuss for upgrade on our Routers:

AI Contour Control II  - 40 vs 200 vs 1000 block lookahead, what do I truly need, I think I have 200 and believe I outrun it regularly.  How big are minute point point moves?

      -MAKE SURE YOU GET A GOOD PARAMETER SET TO START WITH FOR TUNING!!!!!!!

Jerk Control - I have it but it was never defined - how much to "tune it"?

Nano-smoothing 2 (G5.1 Q3)- I do a fair amount of high speed 4ax simulaneous, smooth motion is sometimes impossible given input geo quality (scans), How much will it help

Smooth TCP / HIgh Speed Smooth TCP (you likely won't need this) - but I wonder how much it will help smooth out choppy vectors resulting in better quality and faster run times?

We have...

Quote

AI CONTOUR CONTROL II + HIGH SPEED PROCESSOR NANO SMOOTHING, 600 BLOCKS LOOK AHEAD

 

[g huns]

So I'm still trying to get this nailed down.

Enshu is still pretty baffled by what I'm asking for, but they did talk with Fanuc and came up with a quote.

The 2 options they proposed to add are tool center point function and tilted plane working command. Not sure about the first, but the second is G68.2.

The options are fairly inexpensive, but the multiple days of lodging and labor for both Fanuc and Enshu techs really add up.

I called Fanuc, looking for someone to assure me that this IS what I want, only to talk to a kid who was totally in the dark about commands more advanced than a G02.

So is there anybody around here actually using the G68.2 on a 4 axis horizontal?

[heavychevy2155]

I say chip conveyor, must have.

 

[MIL-TFP-41]

As far as TCPC/TWP......I believe G54.2 (Dynamic Fixture Offset) is all you would really need on a horizontal.

[g huns]

13 minutes ago, MIL-TFP-41 said:

As far as TCPC/TWP......I believe G54.2 (Dynamic Fixture Offset) is all you would really need on a horizontal.

I was wondering about that too after some Googling and eMC searches.

Not sure why nobody from Enshu or Fanuc suggested it. Must be waaaaaaay cheaper. 

My question about G54.2 is; can I post my code from a single "main" work offset, with a B axis rotation of zero, that will cut all the other faces with B axis rotations other than zero?

[MIL-TFP-41]

21 minutes ago, g huns said:

My question about G54.2 is; can I post my code from a single "main" work offset, with a B axis rotation of zero, that will cut all the other faces with B axis rotations other than zero?

Yes. Say you probe in X at B0. and that position is +.025" off & you write that into your G54.2 register

When you rotate your B 180 degrees with G54.2 active it will compensate the X axis -.025.

It will do every angle in between....the 180 deg is for simplicity. All you really need to compensate for is your X and Z axis. It does work in Y, tho that won't change as you rotate your table.

[g huns]

1 minute ago, MIL-TFP-41 said:

Yes. Say you probe in X at B0. and that position is +.025" off & you write that into your G54.2 register

When you rotate your B 180 degrees with G54.2 active it will compensate the X axis -.025.

It will do every angle in between....the 180 deg is for simplicity. All you really need to compensate for is your X and Z axis. It does work in Y, tho that won't change as you rotate your table.

So, if I'm following you, this best used when programming with the center of rotation as your zero? Then, if the part isn't placed exactly where I programmed it in relation to the COR, the operator can compensate for it?

[MIL-TFP-41]

32 minutes ago, g huns said:

So, if I'm following you, this best used when programming with the center of rotation as your zero? Then, if the part isn't placed exactly where I programmed it in relation to the COR, the operator can compensate for it?

That is exactly how we program/use G54.2. We program from center of rotation, and if the actual location of the part is off, we compensate with G54.2. (the error from nominal goes in the register) It does work with full 4 axis work also, tho your post has to be set up to output every axis position during a rotary move (X, Y, Z and B at every position, even if the X or Z axis number/position doesn't change....this is because if you are compensating for an error, the X and Z will change)

If you are using inverse time & your part is WAY off location, your feedrates would be jacked up during a full 4th move

 

[g huns]

1 hour ago, MIL-TFP-41 said:

That is exactly how we program/use G54.2. We program from center of rotation, and if the actual location of the part is off, we compensate with G54.2. (the error from nominal goes in the register) It does work with full 4 axis work also, tho your post has to be set up to output every axis position during a rotary move (X, Y, Z and B at every position, even if the X or Z axis number/position doesn't change....this is because if you are compensating for an error, the X and Z will change)

If you are using inverse time & your part is WAY off location, your feedrates would be jacked up during a full 4th move

 

Yeah. We're not program from COR kind of guys.

If I understand G68.2 correctly, the COR is stored as a machine parameter. We'd be able to program from the center line of our part, and wherever the operator puts it, the machine could compensate for it. 

[huskermcdoogle]

You can use G54.2 without programming to COR.  IIRC from the manual and my understanding of it, you set your work offset (G54,G55...) to rotation center, and then set G54.2 register to the distance from the work offset.  This essentially puts the "control point" on the part instead of the COR.  You program in part coordinates, not in COR coordinates.

[crazy^millman]

4 hours ago, huskermcdoogle said:

You can use G54.2 without programming to COR.  IIRC from the manual and my understanding of it, you set your work offset (G54,G55...) to rotation center, and then set G54.2 register to the distance from the work offset.  This essentially puts the "control point" on the part instead of the COR.  You program in part coordinates, not in COR coordinates.

That is correct. Then as you rotate the one coordinate around the machine it tracks it for all rotations, but you must have your post setup to post according to that process.

[g huns]

Soooo, is the only practical difference that when using G54.2, the operator must set the measured shift and with G68.2 the machine does all the work?

[crazy^millman]

4 minutes ago, g huns said:

Soooo, is the only practical difference that when using G54.2, the operator must set the measured shift and with G68.2 the machine does all the work?

G54.2 allows for the machine to track your parts, but the G68.2 with it to allow the machine to run the code mapped from a Zero and output code following that Zero and changed for each rotation. They serve 2 different purposes. Not sure if the machine will run all your code at different angles without G68.2. It should as a 4 Axis HMC and then the G54.2 does the mapping for you, but the code will make no sense where as with G68.2 and G54.2 then you will have mapped ability for the difference and the code will make sense because it will follow the coordinate system Zero and not be form the original Zero point when you index. I can wrap my brain around X now being Z and Z being X when it rotates when the code is output, but some like to see 1" from a face stay 1" in the code as it rotates and with g68.2 you would see that. Without it then it will be changed as the rotation changes.

[g huns]

Thanks. G68.2 seems like a better choice for how we do things. The operator seeing numbers that make sense is nice.

[pullo]

Just out of curiosity , has Fanuc even bothered  to copy the notion of Basic Rotation like on the Heidenhain ?  I only deal with Heidenhain  and haven't done anything on Fanuc for like 20 yrs...

 

Gracjan

[Grievous]

pullo ...

It does not, but there are other ways to achieve that with Fanuc