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500mm Horizontals


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Hello Mastercam peeps. At my new job we are spec'ing out a new 500mm  horizontal. Since I am no longer bound to Okuma by employment I am looking at Mori and Makino in addition to Okuma. We have roughly 150 different part numbers that need to be set up for small batch production so we are looking at 10-20 pallet systems. The parts are all very similar and share common tooling so 60 ATC will handle all of our needs. All aluminum parts but no really small tools so 15k rpm should be adequate. I am looking for any opinions and experience with the following machines. 

Makino A61NX W/pallet system

Mori NHX5000 2nd gen W/pallet system

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Doug, You know my vote would be the Makino, even though we just bought the Kitamura's. The major reason we didn't buy Makino's last time was the limit in x stroke. With small parts the a61 should be good for you, I would look at the tall column though, it just gives you more y stoke if you are loading up a tombstone with parts. 

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6 minutes ago, specv said:

Doug, You know my vote would be the Makino, even though we just bought the Kitamura's. The major reason we didn't buy Makino's last time was the limit in x stroke. With small parts the a61 should be good for you, I would look at the tall column though, it just gives you more y stoke if you are loading up a tombstone with parts. 

Definitely looking at the tall column as well as heavy load capacity. We are looking at having 8 sided tombstones with 2-10 parts per face depending on part size. 

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You mention small batch sizes and small parts.  Can you define run times per part and how many you are looking to do per order?  Two to ten parts per face means they range from medium in size to small in size.  Are you looking to run single piece flow or are you wanting to gang up multiples of each part?  Maybe there is a far cheaper long term solution.  Don't get me wrong, I love me some 500mm Horizontal action, especially with a pallet system hooked up to them, but they are a lot of coin for one spindle, and even more coin to tool up.  But if the goal is to have one operator running it on one shift, and it runs through the night every night unattended, then well, it's probably the right way to go.  But you knew that already.  So I'll get off my soap box.  But depending on mix and required volumes, have you considered maybe something like a methods job shop cell?  Given the right zero point fixture setup, there isn't much reason you can't change fixtures with the robot as well, which could extend your unattended time significantly.  

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10 minutes ago, Mark @ PPG said:

NHX5000 will give you tons of Z travel, long tools and tall columns (39.4 inch max workpiece height), more so than others

I haven't been on anything made in the last decade from Mori, but I will say this much, if the new machines are an iteration of the old ones, you can't go wrong.

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44 minutes ago, huskermcdoogle said:

You mention small batch sizes and small parts.  Can you define run times per part and how many you are looking to do per order?  Two to ten parts per face means they range from medium in size to small in size.  Are you looking to run single piece flow or are you wanting to gang up multiples of each part?  Maybe there is a far cheaper long term solution.  Don't get me wrong, I love me some 500mm Horizontal action, especially with a pallet system hooked up to them, but they are a lot of coin for one spindle, and even more coin to tool up.  But if the goal is to have one operator running it on one shift, and it runs through the night every night unattended, then well, it's probably the right way to go.  But you knew that already.  So I'll get off my soap box.  But depending on mix and required volumes, have you considered maybe something like a methods job shop cell?  Given the right zero point fixture setup, there isn't much reason you can't change fixtures with the robot as well, which could extend your unattended time significantly.  

Of the 150-ish part numbers our 3 month part usages range from 10 to 200 pieces. Everyday we need to flexibly change schedule to run small batches of parts. We looked at smaller pallet systems in verticals and/or robots, but after all the number crunching the Horizontal works out to be the best.

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We have a NHX4000 with a 5 pallet system. Personally I am not a fan of the Celos control. However for your situation it might be the ticket. The program management on the Celos is far better than anything I have seen on a Fanuc. Getting used to the interface is the biggest hurdle. Mechanically we have had zero issues.

We have a Matsuura H-Plus 405 sitting right next to it. We have run programs "head to head" and found the difference in program times to be negligible. However to get that big of a pool on a Matsuura you would have to go with a Fastems pallet system, which wouldn't be a bad thing. They know what they are doing with those, and they know how to do it well.

If we were to have the chance to the the Mori again....yes we would get the Mori. The machine has been solid.

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^^^ true.

Or Brothers. And they both sell raiser blocks to jack the Z (colum) up to give you more head clearance for the rotary.

Had 2x Robos both with 10k spindles (one with BBT) and they are kickass. Only issue was swarf on the taper but we got around this for 99% of our probs with a plc fix.

Fixture with something like Lang zero point / quick point clamping pallet system - fast changeovers and datums in the prog (G10)???

The more spindles thing worked for us - we ended with a cell of 3 machines in the end for low volume repeat(ish) work - Feelers with 15k spindle and 30 tools.

I did look at a used Mats 405 5x pallet which would have been awesome value for money, but only the one spindle in a footprint of the 3 small m/c cell. Options Options Options!

 

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Makino or Okuma for me. IDK about those NHX machines compared to the old NH DCG.

For FMS, Makino I think does a great job. I have been involved in multiple installs of them and they haven't let me down. PM me if you have any specific questions.

 

Mike 

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Have run older versions of both. I think the Mori still has the best spindle carriage in the horizontals of all sizes. Strong and good vibration damping.

So you can go High Feed or more traditional/hybrid type paths to equal effect, which can be handy in larger Al and Ti parts (over 12") where the number of impacts of the tool can have an effect on dimensional stability. So advantage Mori here. And I like the Mori ergonomics on all their machines.

I like the Makinos too but they are really built for HF toolpaths and not so flexible/adaptable to different techniques/strategies . Spindle not as strong/robust but lighter so easier to move quickly. I think it would be a closer call with smaller parts.

I prefer the Mori cell system, a bit more user friendly, but the Makino cell I ran was a few years old, so although different probably not a lot to choose efficiency wise these days. And whatever the way you set any cell up you soon get used to the procedure.

Out here in the PacNW, the Mori service and support is second to none.

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  • 2 weeks later...

 

Makino tells me that we are the first customer they have ever had to replace two of their new machines on a single project, I can't say that really offers me any comfort. Go over the Makino static geometries and accuracies with a fine tooth comb, they will try to pass off their shotty machine assembly and falsified inspection reports on you if you let them. We had to deal with Makino HQ in OH, and there are a couple good guys there, but way more incompetent people than you could ever imagine at a company such as Makino. They've had a lot of turnover in the last couple of years and they are very understaffed. At this time, I would proceed with caution, and definitely put late delivery penalties in your purchase contract. It took them over 4 months to install two, 3 axis machines here, and they still aren't done. This is of course aside from the fact the machines showed up two months late...

 

I could go on and on, but ultimately, CYA.

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6 hours ago, Sticky said:

 

Makino tells me that we are the first customer they have ever had to replace two of their new machines on a single project, I can't say that really offers me any comfort. Go over the Makino static geometries and accuracies with a fine tooth comb, they will try to pass off their shotty machine assembly and falsified inspection reports on you if you let them. We had to deal with Makino HQ in OH, and there are a couple good guys there, but way more incompetent people than you could ever imagine at a company such as Makino. They've had a lot of turnover in the last couple of years and they are very understaffed. At this time, I would proceed with caution, and definitely put late delivery penalties in your purchase contract. It took them over 4 months to install two, 3 axis machines here, and they still aren't done. This is of course aside from the fact the machines showed up two months late...

 

I could go on and on, but ultimately, CYA.

Sticky,

What machines were replaced (5x, 4ax or vert?) and why (accuracies????)

And are you saying 4 months to JUST install two vmcs??? ie the machines were at your factory, and all they had to so was sight/level/pdi etc???

WOW...

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We got  a DMG Mori NHX5000 at our second shop. The setup guys love the Celos control. They say it's easier than a Haas to navigate. (I think Haas has one of the easiest controls to get around in, though the machine itself  leaves something to be desired...IMHO)

Just started into it with the first couple production jobs. Don't know about longevity or problems yet. Time will tell on that.  However, it seems like a good machine. Easier to run than the old Doosan HMC with Fanuc control. Just my 2 cents worth

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I know Makino makes good machines, but the company has some substantial issues with staff in their Mason OH head quarters, and there is some poor machine assembly work being passed through their Singapore plant.

The machines I bought, returned, and had replaced were an F5 (3axis mill, pretty loaded with options), and an EDNC6 (3 axis sinker edm). Yes, over 4 months to install these machines, and they showed up 2 months late, so yes, 6 months behind schedule. The machines show up with more issues than you can shake a stick at and they don't have the staff to take care of it.

 

How many techs, how many weeks, how many bent tool change arms, and how many destroyed tool holders does it take to align a side mount tool changer? (Hint, the answer is more than 2 for each).

If the Makino spec is 20micron for spindle deflection, and measures 8micron on the inspection report, how much deflection is there in real life? (Hint, it is over 1/2")

If Makino C axis indexing accuracy is specified at a maximum allowable of +/- 15 seconds and the inspection report shows .5seconds, how many seconds in real life? (Hint, just multiple maximum allowable by a value over 100 and you will be close enough).

If the Makino maximum tolerance for squareness is 10microns, how many times this maximum spec will the machine go out of square when the machine runs the Makino 20 min machine warm up program in a climate controlled shop on a good foundation? (2, 3 or 4 times?)

If the Makino maximum spindle runout is 1 micron, and everything related to using the text bar uses a tolerance of under 10 microns, should the test bar be in this sort of condition? (Hint, don't rub you finger nail on that taper, you will take you nail off)

TB1.thumb.jpg.cc801fb86d07da7718c1eca879cde7fb.jpg

 

If the majority of your axis squarness maximum tolerances are 10 micron, should your square have a 8 micron dip in it?

Square.thumb.jpg.b74193ddf31e17ac04371863796f365c.jpg

 

It's a sad state of affairs. As you can imagine, returning 16,000lb machines is not as easy as returning your burger because they forgot to add cheese to it.

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Comes down to support. My experience with MTB techs has been subpar most of the time when things went south (read: okuma 5axis head/table)

Some of those guys are like programmers that never worked as machinists....they seem to know few things and can talk the talk, but can't do the walk...

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1 hour ago, Mark @ PPG said:

Comes down to support. My experience with MTB techs has been subpar most of the time when things went south (read: okuma 5axis head/table)

Some of those guys are like programmers that never worked as machinists....they seem to know few things and can talk the talk, but can't do the walk...

Good ones are far and few between and they command big buck.

fast talkers are plentifull and many times cost less at hire.

lets see, interviewer oh you can do this know this and this and the other and you only want this. gee i just talked to a guy with the same rep. of skillset and wasnt as social and  he wanted more. lets save a buck..

 

very sad

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