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Arc Filter and tolerance input


Metallic
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So, I know that utilizing arc filters and smoothing settings is a highly variable and use-case dependent process. I have read through all of the help menu topics regarding its use, and I walked away more confused and with more questions.

I typically filter when doing HST machining or surfacing stuff and it will reduce my code size bigly, but I have never truly gotten into smoothing. Do all newer controllers prefer arc moves as opposed to line to line, because without filtering, my brand new machine started stuttering and locking up.

When do you use arc filtering and when do you use smoothing typically? Just looking for use case opinions and approaches.

 

Thank you

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24 minutes ago, Metallic said:

Do all newer controllers prefer arc moves as opposed to line to line, because without filtering, my brand new machine started stuttering and locking up.

Line to line is usually better, but it depends on the options you have and are using.  Example, if you have nanosmoothing it's designed for short line segments.  AICC, and most lookaheads will handle either very well.  But results will depend on how much look ahead you have, and how smooth the path is.  For the smoothest shudder free path with standard high speed options, your code needs to have a line to line angle as close to 180 degrees as possible.  Point to point distance will be determined by how fast you need to go and how much lookahead you have.  With nanosmoothing, the line to line angles become far less important, almost insignificant, as long as the segments are shorter than a given distance set in your parameters.

What control do you have, and what options does it have?  This might help tremendously.

IMHO, arc filtering is best suited for code size reduction.  This can help alleviate overrunning your lookahead buffer if you have basic look ahead options.  But for this to be effective you have to be machining in either G17, G18, or G19, otherwise you won't get any arcs. 

Best thing I can suggest is look at your toolpath in backplot and see how the line to line angles are.  Look for short segments next to longer ones, you might find little jogs in there.  If this is the case then your geometry or strategy is causing this, you will have to adjust one or the other, but likely both.

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1 hour ago, huskermcdoogle said:

This will all depend on the machine tool builders implementation, and what options you have.

I think you have to order those options because we have a few FANUC control machines where it looks ahead but it's nowhere near the matsuura ips.

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Leon82 said:

I think you have to order those options

Most certainly.  There are many options than can effect the way the machines handles line segment code.

Look-a-head blocks #, AICC II, nanosmoothing, high speed processing, to name a few.

Not to mention also, the parameters and the way it's setup for use, I have found most builders don't fully utilize what they have enabled for options.  Some do better than others, for example, you matsurra is probably setup decently well, but are there other options available that could make it even better yet? Likely.  Possibly just some tuning could take it to the next level as well.

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17 hours ago, Leon82 said:

The more I see and learn the more I think they spin a wheel and what ever it lands on is what they load into the control

So true.  No two machines are the same, and for all intents and purposes, they pretty much should be, but for some reason never are.  Maybe MTB employees are like machinists, they all have to do it their own way regardless of what might be right wrong or indifferent.

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I have the latest hurco controller and its a nightmare navigating ISO inputs in the hurco control. I dont truly bother all that much with controlling things at the control with their conversational.  They do have smoothing settings but I would prefer to output those within code....using G05.2/05.3 which are currently not being spit out by my post processor. It has serious lookahead capability so thats not exactly a bottleneck.

I am also typically running in G17 mode.

G05.3 is "Surface finish quality" which is a spectrum of 0-100, 0 being the finest and 100 being the coarsest. So it would output as G05.3 Pxxx. It isnt modal so I guess its needed on every line of movement. Which leads me to question, where in the hell would i define that "P" value within mastercams interface? Very confusing

 

Thanks for the inputs.

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With regard to filtering generally use 2:1 ratio Cut : Line/Arc. Very rarely use smoothing and I just do it visually. Zoom in on the Toolpath and adjust until I get rid of the kinks.....keep it to a minimum as you are fighting the filter.....

As for the high speed look ahead MPmaster comes with a mechanism to operate these through the Miscellaneous Values page operated by mr1.

I think you will need to "hijack" one of the existing codes to output your specific requirements (G08.2, AICC, HPCC and Mazak are there already).

If you want to vary your quality setting you will have to set up another mr to take care of that. Try a search, wouldn't surprise me if this has been addressed.

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8 minutes ago, nickbe10 said:

With regard to filtering generally use 2:1 ratio Cut : Line/Arc. Very rarely use smoothing and I just do it visually. Zoom in on the Toolpath and adjust until I get rid of the kinks.....keep it to a minimum as you are fighting the filter.....

As for the high speed look ahead MPmaster comes with a mechanism to operate these through the Miscellaneous Values page operated by mr1.

I think you will need to "hijack" one of the existing codes to output your specific requirements (G08.2, AICC, HPCC and Mazak are there already).

If you want to vary your quality setting you will have to set up another mr to take care of that. Try a search, wouldn't surprise me if this has been addressed.

I just did a test post with Misc Reals....G05.2 and 5.3 are already configured in the machine definition to output a desired smoothness by modifying that, so thanks for pointing me in the right direction with that suggestion.

 

Ive never really used MISC values but have read alot of the advanced threads regarding them, something like 400,000 potential output commands are possible just modifying those, so apparently the rabbit hole gets even deeper. Onward and upward

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30 minutes ago, Metallic said:

something like 400,000 potential output commands are possible just modifying those, so apparently the rabbit hole gets even deeper. Onward and upward

They won't do anything unless they are hooked up to the post.  It all comes down to how much work the post developer wants or needs to put into it.

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1 minute ago, huskermcdoogle said:

They won't do anything unless they are hooked up to the post.  It all comes down to how much work the post developer wants or needs to put into it.

They are hooked up to the post in my case, a path which originally ran at 250ipm doing 5x surfacing now runs at 50ipm with a super refined smoothing setting. of course not an ideal solution but if surface quality is high priority i suppose its necessary.

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1 hour ago, Metallic said:

They are hooked up to the post in my case, a path which originally ran at 250ipm doing 5x surfacing now runs at 50ipm with a super refined smoothing setting. of course not an ideal solution but if surface quality is high priority i suppose its necessary.

I would think 50ipm is pretty slow.  Likely you can go at least 2x that speed before losing much accuracy.  I would find a good middle ground and see how the part quality looks.

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  • 6 months later...

 

I got my numbers from back when 2:1 and 3:1 were selectable options.

With the slider moving more to the right (towards 3:1) you tend to get less code reduction and lower quality.

There might be some geometry "types" which would benefit from the higher filtering ratio, but aerospace isn't one of them.

But just to keep myself honest I will play with settings on some parts. I can count on one hand where I needed to deviate from 2:1 in the last 4 years (only 2 where I ended upusing smoothing). 

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  • 7 months later...
2 minutes ago, Metallic said:

I am currently in a webinar covering the topic of Arc Tolerance/filtering and smoothing

 

Does changing this value to something like 0.0005 or 0.0001  "generally" lead to higher quality surface finishes?

 

 

Capture.JPG

Simple answer is yes..

The more complete answer is tightening the tolerance enough but leaving enough tolerance to actually generate arcs where applicable.

Machines can vary...I have found ours like a .0006" Total Tolerance with a 66.65% Line/Arc Tol, 35.35 Cut Tol

I've seen some run tighter, some more open...some machine don't want arcs, they prefer the line code...

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