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VTL Noob Needs Help


Kampfzentrum
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So, I've managed to avoid HTL and VTL for years now, but it's time to face the music. Programming toolpaths I've been successful with, but what is stumping me is part view/orientation. I've read the forum for past posts and have not found much to go on. Right now, all I am asking is for one thing: to be able to view the part in its correct orientation. For instance, if I click on TOP view, I want to view the part from the top with gnomen showing X pointing right, Y pointing up, etc. If I go to front view, I want to see X pointing right, Z pointing up. This is familiar to me and makes sense.

If I generate stock, I want it to be constructed parallel to the Z axis, etc. Once I have a proper perspective, I can create toolpaths, etc. But right now I cannot even get my bearing when looking at the part. Sooo... In the Machine Definition, what is the most convenient Default Cplane/Orientation/Update WCS Using? Anything else that can be added to these changes to make my life easier?

 

ADDITION: I guess I should add that the tool is and carousel is located on the right side from the operator, but from what I hear you need to set it up as a left-hand machine? I'm really confused about all this - then I hear about 2019 and the new update, etc. I'm just wanting to view this in a way that is practical to me. ALSO, the post processor I have is old as dust, it's an MPLMaster and I've heard that earlier versions don't have proper VTL perspectives - surely this must have been edited. HELP!

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5 minutes ago, C^Millman said:

Do it as a Horizontal lathe and get away from trying to do it as a VTL you life will be much better. Code is code and just wrap your brain around the fact it is laying side ways and not standing up and life will be good.

Set this up in the Machine Parameters? Any specific default Cplane I should work out of?

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23 hours ago, Kampfzentrum said:

So, I've managed to avoid HTL and VTL for years now, but it's time to face the music. Programming toolpaths I've been successful with, but what is stumping me is part view/orientation. I've read the forum for past posts and have not found much to go on. Right now, all I am asking is for one thing: to be able to view the part in its correct orientation. For instance, if I click on TOP view, I want to view the part from the top with gnomen showing X pointing right, Y pointing up, etc. If I go to front view, I want to see X pointing right, Z pointing up. This is familiar to me and makes sense.

If I generate stock, I want it to be constructed parallel to the Z axis, etc. Once I have a proper perspective, I can create toolpaths, etc. But right now I cannot even get my bearing when looking at the part. Sooo... In the Machine Definition, what is the most convenient Default Cplane/Orientation/Update WCS Using? Anything else that can be added to these changes to make my life easier?

 

ADDITION: I guess I should add that the tool is and carousel is located on the right side from the operator, but from what I hear you need to set it up as a left-hand machine? I'm really confused about all this - then I hear about 2019 and the new update, etc. I'm just wanting to view this in a way that is practical to me. ALSO, the post processor I have is old as dust, it's an MPLMaster and I've heard that earlier versions don't have proper VTL perspectives - surely this must have been edited. HELP!

Its probably the post you are using for that VTL if i had to guess. Typically as soon as you load a post that is setup for a VTL and then you do top view or alt+1 the whole part rotates vertical just like you described. So if you load that post and go to top view and it does not rotate my guess would be that the post you are using is for a horizontal lathe and not a vtl.

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22 minutes ago, JoshC said:

Its probably the post you are using for that VTL if i had to guess. Typically as soon as you load a post that is setup for a VTL and then you do top view or alt+1 the whole part rotates vertical just like you described. So if you load that post and go to top view and it does not rotate my guess would be that the post you are using is for a horizontal lathe and not a vtl.

Josh correct me if I am wrong, but the post has nothing to do with the C-Tplanes and WCS process in the Mastercam session. This is all control through the LMD and where what I suggested comes into play. If the post has been made to support what you suspect then programming like a traditional lathe would help them get moving. Not ideal, but VTL is Mastercam is not a simple point and click process like it is for the Standard CNC lathe. Even a 9 Axis Mill/Turn is easier to program sometimes than a VTL in my humble opinion.

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VTL is a strange beast at best, inside Mastercam. That is due to how the MD interacts with the Graphics Views, and WCS Manager inside Mastercam.

If you look at a VTL Setup, with the Turret on the Right hand side, this setup is "functionally identical" to a Horizontal Lathe, with a Lower Turret. (Flip the graphics view 90 degrees, and that "bottom turret" is now on the right side!) That is why Ron's suggestion to use a "Horizontal Lathe" machine definition isn't a bad one. It will Post out good code for your machine, it just won't "look right" on the screen in Mastercam.

What I would do is download a copy of the "Generic VTL Single Turret" machine. (I think you have to get it from the Mastercam.com site.)

It used to be, when you installed Mastercam, there were a bunch of "default" Lathe Machine Definitions, that got installed along with the software. Now, you've got to go download a copy for yourself.

When you load one of the "Generic VTL" machines into your Machine Definition Manager, it will add some additional "Planes" to your Planes Manager. If you set the "WCS" to the VTL Setup", it will then show you the correct view inside of Mastercam.

As others have noted, this is "less than intuitive" in some respects.

2 hours ago, JoshC said:

Its probably the post you are using for that VTL if i had to guess. Typically as soon as you load a post that is setup for a VTL and then you do top view or alt+1 the whole part rotates vertical just like you described. So if you load that post and go to top view and it does not rotate my guess would be that the post you are using is for a horizontal lathe and not a vtl.

This is a function of "loading the Machine Definition", which also automatically loads the CD and Post. However, the mechanism that "maps" the views correctly in Mastercam is the WCS and Planes Manager functionality.

I believe that when you initially load your part in Mastercam, it really depends on how the VTL Machine Definition was built, as to how you need to orient your part "initially" in Mastercam.

There is a "switch" inside the Machine Definition (LATHE Z = WORLD Z), which determines how your part should be oriented "before you load the MD". If that box is "checked" (active), then you should load your part with the Turning Axis facing "up" along the "World Z Axis". If that checkbox is disabled, you should load your part with the "World X Axis" as the Turning Axis.

In either case, the WCS is what ultimately "reorients" your part, so the part is "sticking up" in the Isometric View, and the Z Axis is the Spindle Axis.

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  • 1 month later...

You know, so I have to ask, what are all these various axes for anyway. I swear, I know it must serve some flexibility, but it all seems repetitive and confusing. All I'd like is a part orientated on the screen running parallel to the WCS top axis (through Z). I tried the generic VTL definition, same thing I don't see a difference.

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Hello,

It can be done.  We have done it.

We started with the mplmaster post of this site and worked from there.  You need to define your machine as a VTL in the control definition.

We have the part on screen as the operator sees it on the machine.  Part is vertical and the tools are at the right.  The tricky part is to have the post posting the proper X sign (+ or -).  For this, you need to play with this section of the post processor:

 

Quote

#Machining position turret/spindle settings
# Switch strings based on turret position top/bottom-left/right and cut type.
# Turret position is based on the Mastercam settings (see lathtype).
# Strings are re-assigned for output in the routine psw_str_mult.
# The string variable sw_string holds the place position value to determine
# how to assign the strings.  Planes are relative to the view from Mastercam.
# Assign the 17 digit string following the alpha columns below:
# A - C axis, 1 = axis winds, 2 = axis signed, 3 = indexer
# B - Spindle direction, 0 = normal, 1 = reverse
# C - Plane 0 arc/comp, 0 = normal, 1 = switch
# D - Plane 1 arc/comp, 0 = normal, 1 = switch
# E - Plane 2 arc/comp, 0 = normal, 1 = switch
# F - Plane 0, 0 = G17, 1 = G19, 2 = G18
# G - Plane 1, 0 = G17, 1 = G19, 2 = G18
# H - Plane 2, 0 = G17, 1 = G19, 2 = G18
# Decimal (required)
# I - Plane 0, X axis, 0 = normal, 1 = switch sign from basic
# J - Plane 0, Y axis, 0 = normal, 1 = switch sign from basic
# K - Plane 0, Z axis, 0 = normal, 1 = switch sign from basic
# L - Plane 1, X axis, 0 = normal, 1 = switch sign from basic
# M - Plane 1, Y axis, 0 = normal, 1 = switch sign from basic
# N - Plane 1, Z axis, 0 = normal, 1 = switch sign from basic
# O - Plane 2, X axis, 0 = normal, 1 = switch sign from basic
# P - Plane 2, Y axis, 0 = normal, 1 = switch sign from basic
# Q - Plane 2, Z axis, 0 = normal, 1 = switch sign from basic
use_only_tl : 0     #Use only Top turret/Left spindle settings (below) for
                    #all Mastercam turret/spindle selections
                    #When configuring for multi-spindle/turret set to 0

#Columns-       ABCDEFGH.IJKLMNOPQ   #Turret/Spindle           #Path Type
scase_tl_c1  : "10000222.100100100"  #Top turret/Left spindle, Turning cut
scase_tl_c2  : "10000012.000000000"  #Top turret/Left spindle, Right Face cut
scase_tl_c_2 : "10110012.000000000"  #Top turret/Left spindle, Left Face cut
scase_tl_c3  : "10010102.000000000"  #Top turret/Left spindle, Cross cut (cuttype = 3)
scase_tl_c3r : "10001102.000000000"  #Top turret/Left spindle, Reverse Cross cut (cuttype = -3)
scase_tl_c4c : "10000222.000000000"  #Top turret/Left spindle, Y axis subs. Cycle
scase_tl_c4  : "10000122.000000000"  #Top turret/Left spindle, Y axis subs.
scase_tl_c5  : "10000222.000000000"  #Top turret/Left spindle, Multisurf Rotary

#Columns-       ABCDEFGH.IJKLMNOPQ
scase_bl_c1  : "10000222.100100100"  #Bottom turret/Left spindle, Turning cut
scase_bl_c2  : "10000222.000000000"  #Bottom turret/Left spindle, Right Face cut
scase_bl_c_2 : "10110222.000000000"  #Bottom turret/Left spindle, Left Face cut
scase_bl_c3  : "10010222.000000000"  #Bottom turret/Left spindle, Cross cut (cuttype = 3)
scase_bl_c3r : "10010222.000000000"  #Bottom turret/Left spindle, Reverse Cross cut (cuttype = -3)
scase_bl_c4c : "10000222.000000000"  #Bottom turret/Left spindle, Y axis subs. Cycle
scase_bl_c4  : "10000222.000000000"  #Bottom turret/Left spindle, Y axis subs.
scase_bl_c5  : "10000222.000000000"  #Bottom turret/Left spindle, Multisurf Rotary

#Columns-       ABCDEFGH.IJKLMNOPQ
scase_tr_c1  : "10000222.000000000"  #Top turret/Right spindle, Turning cut
scase_tr_c2  : "10000012.000000000"  #Top turret/Right spindle, Right Face cut
scase_tr_c_2 : "10110012.000000000"  #Top turret/Right spindle, Left Face cut
scase_tr_c3  : "10010102.000000000"  #Top turret/Right spindle, Cross cut (cuttype = 3)
scase_tr_c3r : "10001102.000000000"  #Top turret/Right spindle, Reverse Cross cut (cuttype = -3)
scase_tr_c4c : "10000222.000000000"  #Top turret/Right spindle, Y axis subs. Cycle
scase_tr_c4  : "10000222.000000000"  #Top turret/Right spindle, Y axis subs.
scase_tr_c5  : "10000222.000000000"  #Top turret/Right spindle, Multisurf Rotary

#Columns-       ABCDEFGH.IJKLMNOPQ
scase_br_c1  : "10000222.000000000"  #Bottom turret/Right spindle, Turning cut
scase_br_c2  : "10000222.000000000"  #Bottom turret/Right spindle, Right Face cut
scase_br_c_2 : "10110222.000000000"  #Bottom turret/Right spindle, Left Face cut
scase_br_c3  : "10010222.000000000"  #Bottom turret/Right spindle, Cross cut (cuttype = 3)
scase_br_c3r : "10010222.000000000"  #Bottom turret/Right spindle, Reverse Cross cut (cuttype = -3)
scase_br_c4c : "10000222.000000000"  #Bottom turret/Right spindle, Y axis subs. Cycle
scase_br_c4  : "10000222.000000000"  #Bottom turret/Right spindle, Y axis subs.
scase_br_c5  : "10000222.000000000"  #Bottom turret/Right spindle, Multisurf Rotary
 

Hope that helps,

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32 minutes ago, Mgrenier said:

Hello,

It can be done.  We have done it.

We started with the mplmaster post of this site and worked from there.  You need to define your machine as a VTL in the control definition.

We have the part on screen as the operator sees it on the machine.  Part is vertical and the tools are at the right.  The tricky part is to have the post posting the proper X sign (+ or -).  For this, you need to play with this section of the post processor:

 

Hope that helps,

OK, this string of code, where are you accessing this?

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Kamp, if I might suggest, just get used to the Gnomon not matching the real world and move on?  I struggled for a month or so until I gave up and just went with it.  Now, it's second nature just to click "Bottom" to see the part in the "real life view."  I know, it sucks at first but to be honest, at this point I have no preference as to what I program any more.  It's all as easy as the next once you give up and drink the Kool-Aid.  I would be happy to help you, or even program a simple part or two on a Gotomeeting so you can see the process.  It's so simple you'll get mad when it clicks, at least I did!

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In order to get VTL to work "correctly", you need several pieces of Mastercam to work together:

  • Proper VTL Machine Definition
  • Post configured to match machine settings ('scase' strings)
  • Tools defined as "Bottom Turret" tools. (I just take the "VTL Tool Library", and use that as my starting point...)

If you've got a couple hours available this Sunday, I'd offer to help you figure it out...

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How about I extend the offer of help to anyone who wants to learn about VTL's inside Mastercam?

This Sunday I've got some availability. Here is what I propose - 

Send me an email at: 

[email protected]

If you are interested in attending an online class this Sunday. 1:00 pm - 4:30 pm (ish).

The basic plan would be to use your machine as an example, and do a high-level overview of the pieces of Mastercam that need to be configured for VTL to work properly.

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  • 2 months later...
On ‎6‎/‎26‎/‎2018 at 7:26 PM, Colin Gilchrist said:

How about I extend the offer of help to anyone who wants to learn about VTL's inside Mastercam?

This Sunday I've got some availability. Here is what I propose - 

Send me an email at: 

[email protected] 

If you are interested in attending an online class this Sunday. 1:00 pm - 4:30 pm (ish).

The basic plan would be to use your machine as an example, and do a high-level overview of the pieces of Mastercam that need to be configured for VTL to work properly.

Just seeing this now, I hope this offer is still available.

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On 6/21/2018 at 8:05 AM, Kampfzentrum said:

OK, this string of code, where are you accessing this?

In other words, Ron is correct. Just program as a horizontal and rotate your graphics view if you absolutely have to. Realistically, it is really the same. Rather than go through this headache it would be easier to just lay on your side, or rotate your monitor, while programing a VTL :)

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1 hour ago, Mark VIII said:

In other words, Ron is correct. Just program as a horizontal and rotate your graphics view if you absolutely have to. Realistically, it is really the same. Rather than go through this headache it would be easier to just lay on your side, or rotate your monitor, while programing a VTL :)

Well, I have 840 Siemens controller on a G&L, it's a custom post. I guess I could use that basic MasterCam lathe post then import the post processor after I've done it all. Here's another issue. The operators, who are currently writing programs off the controller, run the spindle clockwise. I cannot find a way to get MasterCam is give me this orientation.

In a nutshell, I'm a complete idiot when it comes to lathes and VTLs in MasterCam.

Just had IT run down here to drop off speakers, I'm spending the day watch tutorials and get as much help as possible.

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43 minutes ago, Mark VIII said:

Clockwise when you look at the front of the chuck, or from the back?

If standing at the front of the doors on the VTL, the chuck runs clockwise. They do all turning on the left side (-X), the turning tool has the insert so that it is visible to the operator. The tool carousel is on the right hand side when standing at the doors looking in.

I could take a photo if need be.

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1 minute ago, Colin Gilchrist said:

Hi Stephen,

I'm sure we could do a little training on VTL. It would still have to be on a weekend for me to have the time to do it.

 

I shot you an Email. Weekend would be rough as I rarely am in on weekends. Dang... You seem like the go to guy too.

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