CAT50 Dual Contact

[g huns]

We had an Accupro CAT50, 2” shell mill arbor from our old Okuma that we have been using in our two new Enshus. We are in the process of buying additional holders so we have duplicate tooling in both machines. When I reordered that shell mill holder from MSC, it came in labeled CAT50, but appeared to be a BT50. The back flange was thicker. I sent it back, thinking it was miss marked. The replacement came today and it’s the same. After reading the description on MSC’s website more closely, they call it a CAT50, dual contact taper shank. Doesn’t that make it a BT50?

The V groove in the flange is identical between the two holders, behind the V is just thicker on the "dual contact" one.

So would this holder work in our spindle/tool changer?

And now, the truth comes out...

Our two operators brought this to my attention this morning. I said I'll look into it. The one came back in and I didn't yet have an answer. I asked how he noticed the difference. He said, well, when I picked up the tool it was about .090" longer than the original one. I said, so it was in the spindle? He said, yep. I asked how it got there? He said, what do you mean? I said, did you put it in by hand or did you run it through the tool changer. He admitted he'd run it through the tool changer.

So I guess we know it works.

I had them put two tiny dots of bluing on the spindle taper and the spindle face, then put the tool in the spindle and clamped it. It is most definitely "dual contact". Those tiny little dots, the size of the head of a pin, turned large portions of the entire taper and back flange of the holder all blue.

 

[GoetzInd]

Dual contact Cat50 is not bt50. BT has significantly different gripper flange geometry. What you have is a dual contact Cat50 which will work fine in a standard spindle. What they do is "close the gap" on both the spindle and holder side of the space between spindle face and flange face so that tools from both standards are interchangeable.

Quote

I had them put two tiny dots of bluing on the spindle taper and the spindle face, then put the tool in the spindle and clamped it. It is most definitely "dual contact". Those tiny little dots, the size of the head of a pin, turned large portions of the entire taper and back flange of the holder all blue.

You must have a Big Plus dual contact spindle. Which is a good thing,

Mike

[g huns]

Cool. Thanks.

I am puzzled as to why the length offset is so much different between them though. Generally, a tool picked up in one of our machines will pick up identical in the other. There has to be something different between them, but I can't see what it is.

[Rocketmachinist]

1 hour ago, g huns said:

Cool. Thanks.

I am puzzled as to why the length offset is so much different between them though. Generally, a tool picked up in one of our machines will pick up identical in the other. There has to be something different between them, but I can't see what it is.

You said Accupro. Probably made in Spain by Newbeee.

[g huns]

33 minutes ago, Rocketmachinist said:

You said Accupro. Probably made in Spain by Newbeee.

Made in Spain by a Frenchman?

Yeah, well when you need it RIGHT PHUKIN NOW!!! and the MSC distribution center is just down the street, you use it. 

[?Mark]

3 hours ago, g huns said:

Cool. Thanks.

I am puzzled as to why the length offset is so much different between them though. Generally, a tool picked up in one of our machines will pick up identical in the other. There has to be something different between them, but I can't see what it is.

Are you measuring the tlo off the taper or off the flange? If measured from the taper it should be the same if the gage length is the same as well.

[g huns]

21 minutes ago, Mark @ PPG said:

Are you measuring the tlo off the taper or off the flange? If measured from the taper it should be the same if the gage length is the same as well.

It turns out the holder is just around .090 longer.

They say it's a 6" projection. If I scale them, the old one is 6" from the witness line the spindle leaves on the holder's taper to the tip. The new one is 6" from back of the flange that hits the spindle face to the tip, or about .090 longer.

I'm probably just going to buy another one and file the old one away for emergency use only.

[huskermcdoogle]

3 hours ago, g huns said:

I'm probably just going to buy another one and file the old one away for emergency use only.

Probably for the best.

Face mill holders typically have a fair amount of length variation, as can the tools, though .090" seems like a bit, must be a brand to brand thing.  I want to say the most variation on two of the same holders if have seen is about .005"    We used to match grind face mill holders at Parlec once in a while, but IIRC it was a pretty rare request. I ordered some matched from kennametal such that the guys didn't have to preset face mills or adjust offsets when they swapped tools, seeing as they would need to rotate inserts every day, and a 16 pocket cutter takes too long to do with the machine sitting.

I'd be curious to find out what maritool does with shell mill holders as far as projection tolerance is concerned.

[jlw™]

Having read every bit of this, we bought all Technics for two Mazaks with Cat50 Big+ spindles.  They have been on the money.  The holders repeat on length with in .002 - .003 as mention in the previous post.  It's close enough that I will swap feedmills and keep running without touching off.

However, I personally can not perceive any better tool life or performance in the Big+ vs the plain old Cat-fitty spindles.  Whether this is true or not, the way we run and the abuse our machines take, it's impossible to notice a difference.

[g huns]

9 hours ago, jlw™ said:

However, I personally can not perceive any better tool life or performance in the Big+ vs the plain old Cat-fitty spindles.  Whether this is true or not, the way we run and the abuse our machines take, it's impossible to notice a difference.

I don't think we'll see any difference. We run our 2" feed mills on 6" extensions because we saw no difference on the horizontal machines between a 6" extension and a 2" extension. If an extra 4" of length don't matter, the face contact won't matter. I just feel better with our operators if things are all the same.

[jlw™]

On 6/21/2018 at 6:33 AM, g huns said:

I don't think we'll see any difference. We run our 2" feed mills on 6" extensions because we saw no difference on the horizontal machines between a 6" extension and a 2" extension. If an extra 4" of length don't matter, the face contact won't matter. I just feel better with our operators if things are all the same.

I never see any difference in extension out to about 9 inches.  In fact, all of my holders less than 6in have been pulled so save valuable magazine space.

[g huns]

On 6/21/2018 at 7:33 AM, g huns said:

I don't think we'll see any difference...

I was wrong.

The tool was noticeably quieter with the dual contact holder. Hard to say if insert life was effected, but quieter is better in my experience.