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quantity of programmers required rule of thumb?


White Feather
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Just out of curiosity what would be the amount of programmers required on a per machine basis in an average aerospace job shop which does no more than say 20% repeat work; which of course means that 80% of the work will need to be processed and programmed from scratch.

 

In this scenario lets say the programmers duties would be creation of all the required CNC programming/verification, solid modeling if needed, fixtures/work holding, tooling selection, as well as material size selection. The programmer would of course also interface with the machinist/operator on the floor for setup/operation, and any required editing or changes in the process.

 

Lets assume this is just a typical small/medium job shop, average sized machines, no gantry work or big VTL stuff... just for example lets say the equipment is as below..

 

20% of the machines are typical 3+1 mills at @40" of X travel... think Mazak 510/Haas VF4SS.

15% of the machines are small palletized 4 axis horizontal mills... think Makino A51/Mitsui Vertex.

15% are mill turns with average sized swing... think Mazak 250MY/Okuma Crown.

20% are multitasking machines... think Mazak i200 Integrex/Mori NTX.

20% are average sized 5 axis mills... think Mazak i600 Variaxis/DMG/DMU.

5% are larger 4 axis palletized horizontal mills, think Mazak 8800 or Mitsui HS6a.

5% are larger vertical multitasking, think Mazak i630 integrex/Mazak i1050 integrex.

 

Assume a normal mix of material types, complexity of components, and dimensional tolerancing for typical aerospace applications.

 

I realize this is a very generalized broad question which requires a coat of paint with a very very wide paintbrush; I myself have worked on several components over the years that required every bit of my time on a single piece for months.... but for the sake of this argument just exclude that type of job as a possibility.

 

I'm not looking for exact numbers just a generalized idea of what you opinions are, a high/low answer is fine and any answer is appreciated.

 

Thanks!

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Its as much a function of the type of parts you're building too.

This place has a 1 to ten ratio of programmers to machine, but a lot of our work is repeat work.

If you're doing mostly new work and it's moderately complex, you'd want a 1 to 4 , or even 1 to 3.

Sometimes you'll get a very tough project that may take a programmer out of the line up for months on end

which puts a heavier workload on the rest of the guys.

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Here I'm programming  9 machines (2×multitasking+2×HMC+5×VMC). Mainly small aerospace engine parts (titanium/Inconel/PH stainless). I'd say about 30% repeating jobs which often need to be reworked to move on different machines (anyone has same controller...)

I'm doing all asked on first post except material selection size and fixtures modeling.

 

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that's a loaded question

I currently support 3 machines 3-5 axis, I am the designer on some, programmer on all, estimator on most, material manager-saw, tool designer, operator and setup guy. machines run about 20% efficiency. argh. that's the way they want to run the business and I enjoy the mix.

I have supported up to 12 machines as programmer setup lead. that required a very, very good team all working together and we ran about 80% efficiency.

just the two sides of the coin. 

 

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Figure the ratio of time it takes to process engineer and program vs to run the lot of parts.  In Ron's example above, if they run one part they need two programmers per machine.  If they run ten it's one programmer to five machines.

In reality you're never going to get the ratio exact, as it will be continuously fluctuating.  So you have to figure whether it's worse to have machines sitting waiting for programs, or programmers with lighter than possible workloads.  Here it's one programmer (me), one machine, and when long production runs give me free man-hours I do product design work.  So it's probably better to have extra programmer time and have them cross-trained to pick up slack from other departments when they can.

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On ‎1‎/‎16‎/‎2019 at 5:44 PM, 5th Axis CGI said:

 

What do the setup sheets require? We have one customer that if I were to run the program in my shop (if I had one) it would be 40 operations in Mastercam, but for them it becomes 500 operations all named, labeled and detailed out. Complete Tool Lists with EDP, Holders, and built in Mastercam ready to give a tool crib person to build without ever needing to think or do anything but build what you have given them. Can it be a Cat 50 Shrink it with 3/4 5 Flute Carbide endmill 1-1/2 LOC for Ti and that is good enough?

 

Ron's right on the nail. And if you use x+ setup sheet, it can be 1x click. Easy peasy. If you have something a lot more detailed, it can take a morning...

And it depends upon what you call an aerospace part. If it's an airframer part, it can have a lot of winding (scanned) faces. If it's black box type work, it's prismatics (3ax).

But judging by the fact you have millturn/variaxis and horis, and the fact that the 'grammer is effectively the production engineer as well, I would say it's a high ratio.

Which probably isn't what you want to hear...

Cementhead seems lean to me - with 92 machines running 7/24 minimal repeat, and only having 7 'grammers, I'd say they are more than earning their keep :cheers: . I'd have expected him to say there's 10 or so.

 

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On 1/17/2019 at 4:09 PM, 5th Axis CGI said:

What type of work?

Honestly anything that hit the door in Michigan. I had programmed a ss food grade hamburger patty maker for a meat packing company, later made a program for a prototype sunroof system for ASC then made a bunch of programs for some extruded aluminum rails for an A400 Airbus cargo plane. It was always something different but the majority of our work was military aircraft part like the A400.

 

edit: you will be surprised to know we did very little automotive work though. It was great because I hated the auto stuff.

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We have 18 mills, 9 are 5 x. We make mostly air frame parts and do about 80% repeat.  Its myself and to others.  They are nearing retirement and don’t get in a hurry to do anything. I am younger,  much more driven and was recently made lead. Hence I do most of the new work. They handle mostly re-work of vintage programs to move to newer machines.  They run catia. I of coarse us mcam. Guess which software management likes better?😀

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16 machines  total

6 5 axis machines, 1 500mm horizontal and the rest 3 axis verticals. 70% new parts 30% repeat work

Two of us handle all of it and its a xxxx show lol. We have to do 90% of the setup as well besides very simple 3 axis parts.

Could really use a third guy if anyone is from the bay area .... :)

 

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13 hours ago, lowcountrycamo said:

We have 18 mills, 9 are 5 x. We make mostly air frame parts and do about 80% repeat.  Its myself and to others.  They are nearing retirement and don’t get in a hurry to do anything. I am younger,  much more driven and was recently made lead. Hence I do most of the new work. They handle mostly re-work of vintage programs to move to newer machines.  They run catia. I of coarse us mcam. Guess which software management likes better?😀

There once was a speedy hare who bragged about how fast he could run. Tired of hearing him boast, Slow and Steady, the tortoise, challenged him to a race. .....

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We have 16 CNC mills mostly 4/5 axis with two programmers.  We do aerospace work with part quantities ranging anywhere from one piece to 1000 pieces and everything in between. We are probably 50% repeat work and 50% new work.  We have plans to buy some new machines in the future.  So far so good with two of us.

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